[game_edu] game_edu Digest, Vol 54, Issue 25
Harrington, Timothy
tharrington at devry.edu
Wed Apr 15 14:30:51 EDT 2009
Interesting conversation everyone, and actually an ongoing conversation since the early 90s (probably before yet not as relevant a topic as today). I've been involved with higher education program development, curriculum design and delivery, and student service for nearly 20 years. Service in various capacities for non-profit, proprietary, for-profit, private independent, private for-profit, ... sector titles may change, the purpose of all of these schools has not - provide an opportunity for students to pursue studies in career oriented fields that have otherwise been unavailable or inaccessible on the traditional college or university campus. Programs are a varying mix of hands-on with liberal arts to provide a well rounded and practical experience and often defined by the school's relationship with its accrediting agency. The number one theme underlining all enrollment decisions for the college and the prospective student has been an agreement that there is a recognized and identifiable (actual, measurable, and contextual) demonstration of the ability for the student to benefit from enrolling in and completing the program of study.
Everything needing to be said in this discussion has been likely said, bottom line a degree program is continually evolving, programs and faculty are continually improving and at the colleges which I have either worked or consulted, enrollment, academics, and career services work together to provide the best possible opportunities for their students. End of the day, the student owns their experience, is given the freedom of choice about how they fulfill their role in pursuing the degree as planned by the institution, and is given guidance on best ways to succeed. The rest is up to he or she!
Next topic... how 'bout those Cavs!?
Tim J. Harrington
Assistant Dean
College of Engineering and Information Sciences
University Academic Affairs
Game & Simulation Programming
Web Graphics Design
Multimedia Design & Development
DeVry University
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Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 9:26 AM
To: game_edu at igda.org
Subject: game_edu Digest, Vol 54, Issue 25
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IGDA Education SIG
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Today's Topics:
1. Game Jobs Yahoo Group (Beau Gould (OSS))
2. Re: Here goes the first shoe . . . (kevin at kogsspin.com)
3. Re: Here goes the first shoe... (DeAnne Preston)
4. Re: Here goes the first shoe . . . (Mark Harmon)
5. Re: Here goes the first shoe... (Ian Schreiber)
6. Re: Here goes the first shoe... (Scott Maddock)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 02:06:29 -0400
From: "Beau Gould \(OSS\)" <beau at open-source-staffing.com>
Subject: [game_edu] Game Jobs Yahoo Group
To: <game_edu at igda.org>
Message-ID: <CE9C69FD75EF457796FFB5759179A9B3 at EMACHINE>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Moderated Game Jobs Yahoo Group (445 Members)
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/GameJobz
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 08:37:18 -0700
From: kevin at kogsspin.com
Subject: Re: [game_edu] Here goes the first shoe . . .
To: game_edu at igda.org
Message-ID:
<20090415083718.bdtadpy9wgwskwkw at login.polaris.lunarpages.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes";
format="flowed"
I totally agree with Susan and despite my agonizing efforts to try to
seem "non-finger-pointy" I can see where I may have failed. Having
taught at two "for-profit" schools (I'm at one now), I was merely
pointing out that they are more susceptible to these types of suits.
When was the last time a land-grant university was sued for deceptive
business practices?
Sorry if I caused offense, but I thought this would be a pertinent
topic for this forum and knew someone had to just suck it up and post
it. Now I'm going to see if it made the IGDA forums yet.
As for my take on the situation, I'm in the "school is what you make
of it" camp. So even in the worst situations, the fact that you
isolated so many hours a week for school and were exposed to
techniques and textbooks means you should have left there with more
knowledge and experience than when you entered. If you sat there with
your mouth open expecting to be spoon-fed an industry-acing education
(at any school), then you began your journey on faulty premises and
that is what we can fix. We can make sure any freshly spawned
developers-to-be know how to evaluate a program and pick the one that
is right for his or her needs.
--Kevin
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 18:00:08 -0700
From: Susan Gold <sgold at btrout.com>
Subject: Re: [game_edu] Here goes the first shoe . . .
To: IGDA Game Education Listserv <game_edu at igda.org>
Message-ID: <C60A7FA8.1C918%sgold at btrout.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
I think this is an interesting topic, but please everyone, this is not a
pick on the ?for profit? program listserv. This is for thoughtful discourse.
Note, since this a lawsuit, I know students and school representatives can
not even discuss this in an open forum.
I hope that we all respect each other enough to realize that all programs
have some great and some bad instructors. Pointing a finger also means that
you have three fingers pointing back at yourself.
The type of thing that would make sense to me is if we can find a way to
help these students. Maybe they should all take Ian?s Free Summer Game
Design class? What other ideas might we be able to give them?
Susan
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 09:13:46 -0700
From: "DeAnne Preston" <DPreston at collinscollege.edu>
Subject: Re: [game_edu] Here goes the first shoe...
To: "IGDA Game Education Listserv" <game_edu at igda.org>
Message-ID:
<25493AC23EEC974CBCFF389D8924B87905A9EA69 at 002emx001.cec.root.careered.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
As someone who works in Career Services at a for-profit school, I'm
careful not to jump to conclusions, especially since the news clip about
this lawsuit doesn't include any of the pertinent facts.
In order to get a job in their field, students must to submit a
portfolio that demonstrates proficiency in the skills required for the
job as well as a resume and interview that show they have the
professional 'soft skills' employers look for. They also need to 'work a
plan', such as pursuing jobs and experiences while they are in school -
even if it has to be outside their field - that will help them build
skills that will be transferable to an in-field job. We go to great
lengths to provide the training they need to do this, and to make them
understand that they will need career management skills throughout their
working life.
At our school we are very, very careful to tell students that we do NOT
'get' them a job - how could we? Employers don't take orders from us. We
make this point in writing because students refuse to hear it otherwise.
Our role is to train and assist them to conduct their own unique job
search.
Students who work a career strategy to build their skills while they are
in school, especially continuing to work on their skills when they are
outside the classroom, are the ones who are able to launch a logical
career path upon graduation.
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. The ones
who spend all their free time playing World of Warcraft and can't be
bothered to learn career management skills are the ones who continue to
work at GameStop when they graduate, and complain that the school lied
to them. The ones who seek out constructive criticism of their work from
Instructors and produce an appropriate portfolio are a joy to assist,
and they aren't complaining.
It would be interesting to know how many of the graduates in that
lawsuit sought ways to develop skills outside the classroom, not only in
jobs but by collaboration on projects, volunteering to use their skills
for non profits, and on part time jobs - all useful 'resume builders'.
Or did they continue to bartend their way through school and then ask at
graduation, "Where's my career job?"
This lawsuit isn't just about truth in placement reporting - it's also
about student/graduate motivation.
My husband works at the local state university, and he tells me that
their career services department offers nowhere near the quality of
training that we provide. Their students have realistic expectations for
the school's role in their job search, so they aren't suing.
DeAnne Preston
Collins College
Career Services Advisor, Game Design
New Direct Line: 480-446-1136
dpreston at collinscollege.edu
-----Original Message-----
From: game_edu-bounces at igda.org [mailto:game_edu-bounces at igda.org] On
Behalf Of kevin at kogsspin.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 8:37 AM
To: game_edu at igda.org
Subject: Re: [game_edu] Here goes the first shoe . . .
I totally agree with Susan and despite my agonizing efforts to try to
seem "non-finger-pointy" I can see where I may have failed. Having
taught at two "for-profit" schools (I'm at one now), I was merely
pointing out that they are more susceptible to these types of suits.
When was the last time a land-grant university was sued for deceptive
business practices?
Sorry if I caused offense, but I thought this would be a pertinent
topic for this forum and knew someone had to just suck it up and post
it. Now I'm going to see if it made the IGDA forums yet.
As for my take on the situation, I'm in the "school is what you make
of it" camp. So even in the worst situations, the fact that you
isolated so many hours a week for school and were exposed to
techniques and textbooks means you should have left there with more
knowledge and experience than when you entered. If you sat there with
your mouth open expecting to be spoon-fed an industry-acing education
(at any school), then you began your journey on faulty premises and
that is what we can fix. We can make sure any freshly spawned
developers-to-be know how to evaluate a program and pick the one that
is right for his or her needs.
--Kevin
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 18:00:08 -0700
From: Susan Gold <sgold at btrout.com>
Subject: Re: [game_edu] Here goes the first shoe . . .
To: IGDA Game Education Listserv <game_edu at igda.org>
Message-ID: <C60A7FA8.1C918%sgold at btrout.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
I think this is an interesting topic, but please everyone, this is not a
pick on the ?for profit? program listserv. This is for thoughtful
discourse.
Note, since this a lawsuit, I know students and school representatives
can
not even discuss this in an open forum.
I hope that we all respect each other enough to realize that all
programs
have some great and some bad instructors. Pointing a finger also means
that
you have three fingers pointing back at yourself.
The type of thing that would make sense to me is if we can find a way to
help these students. Maybe they should all take Ian?s Free Summer Game
Design class? What other ideas might we be able to give them?
Susan
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game_edu at igda.org
http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_edu
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 10:15:26 -0600
From: "Mark Harmon" <MHarmon at westwood.edu>
Subject: Re: [game_edu] Here goes the first shoe . . .
To: "IGDA Game Education Listserv" <game_edu at igda.org>
Message-ID:
<AD27FABC87AEEB458E22FCB9258DD9E3034C98 at WWDC1-EX-CPBE01.westwood2000>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
As Susan mentioned, I am not at liberty to discuss details about any
legal action.
I can say that to the best of my understanding this news report concerns
one of our campuses from 2000-ish, and I am not sure either game program
existed back then.
If anyone has questions about our Game Art or Game Software program, how
they were designed and with what intent, what industry/input and
feedback we use to check ourselves, or our candidacy status for regional
accreditation with the Higher Learning Commission of North Central
Association of Colleges and Schools, I would be happy to answer any
questions offline.
Regards,
Markus Harmon
Program Director, Gaming
Westwood College Online
Direct: 303.410.7957
Toll-Free: 877.817.9525 Ext. 11157
Email: mharmon at westwood.edu
www.westwoodonline.edu <http://www.westwoodonline.edu/>
From: game_edu-bounces at igda.org [mailto:game_edu-bounces at igda.org] On
Behalf Of Susan Gold
Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 9:00 PM
To: IGDA Game Education Listserv
Subject: Re: [game_edu] Here goes the first shoe . . .
I think this is an interesting topic, but please everyone, this is not a
pick on the "for profit" program listserv. This is for thoughtful
discourse. Note, since this a lawsuit, I know students and school
representatives can not even discuss this in an open forum.
I hope that we all respect each other enough to realize that all
programs have some great and some bad instructors. Pointing a finger
also means that you have three fingers pointing back at yourself.
The type of thing that would make sense to me is if we can find a way to
help these students. Maybe they should all take Ian's Free Summer Game
Design class? What other ideas might we be able to give them?
Susan
On 4/14/09 5:47 PM, "kevin at kogsspin.com" <kevin at kogsspin.com> wrote:
Well, here's a topic we've all tried to step carefully around. I know
a lot of innocent people have been affected by this and some more will
probably be affected by the upcoming lawsuit. It will be interesting
to see what sort of traction the story gains and how the public and
the industry react. Nothing against Westwood . . . this was bound to
happen to some program some time -- especially one of the for-profit
ones.
http://www.videosift.com/video/Westwood-College-Sued-For-Fraud
--Kevin
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--
Susan Gold
sgold at btrout.com
"The public is wonderfully tolerant. It forgives everything except
genius." Oscar Wilde
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Message: 5
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 09:24:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: Ian Schreiber <ai864 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [game_edu] Here goes the first shoe...
To: IGDA Game Education Listserv <game_edu at igda.org>
Message-ID: <408117.41148.qm at web39702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>This lawsuit isn't just about truth in placement reporting - it's also
>about student/graduate motivation.
?
Ultimately I think it's about a disconnect between student expectations, and what the school could reasonably provide.
?
I suspect at the heart of the case will be who was responsible for that disconnect. Was it willful ignorance on the part of the students, or blatant misrepresentation on the part of the school?
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Message: 6
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 12:26:20 -0400
From: Scott Maddock <smaddock at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [game_edu] Here goes the first shoe...
To: IGDA Game Education Listserv <game_edu at igda.org>
Message-ID:
<cbc999a10904150926q2c281d6ejdbf2d4be35367fc9 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Ultimately I think it's about a disconnect between student expectations,
> and what the school could reasonably provide.
>
> I suspect at the heart of the case will be who was responsible for that
> disconnect. Was it willful ignorance on the part of the students, or blatant
> misrepresentation on the part of the school?
I think you're dead on with this, Ian. I also think that the burden of
proof is on the students, and it's going to be a pretty difficult one to
prove, but I really don't have any of the details, so I'm just
speculatin'...
On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 12:24 PM, Ian Schreiber <ai864 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >This lawsuit isn't just about truth in placement reporting - it's also
> >about student/graduate motivation.
>
> Ultimately I think it's about a disconnect between student expectations,
> and what the school could reasonably provide.
>
> I suspect at the heart of the case will be who was responsible for that
> disconnect. Was it willful ignorance on the part of the students, or blatant
> misrepresentation on the part of the school?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_edu mailing list
> game_edu at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_edu
>
>
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