[game_edu] placement rates (was Introduction - Sheri Rubin)

[Ian Schreiber]

The issue of degrees varies between accreditation bodies, I think. From talking to others at places like GDC, it seems like some schools are required to keep a certain % of faculty with advanced degrees, no ifs-ands-or-buts, while others are able to substitute field experience for degrees in some cases. If this is a problem for your school, it would definitely be worth your time to contact your accrediting body and see where the rules can be bent so that you can attract the best faculty. Certainly, if accreditation is actually decreasing the quality of education, that is the opposite of what an accrediting board is supposed to be doing...

As for adjuncts, that probably also varies (in terms of what kinds of degrees your adjuncts need, and also what fraction of your faculty is full-time in the first place). I know that in academia at large (not game-specific) there has been a trend towards relying more and more on adjuncts lately due to the cost savings... and I wonder if there will be a backlash from that in a few more years (for example, imagine a school with 25% adjuncts that suddenly found with an economic upturn that half of its adjuncts left for industry again -- can you imagine staffing up that much within the space of a single term, or cutting as many classes?).

- Ian




________________________________
From: baylor wetzel <baylorw at gmail.com>
To: IGDA Game Education Listserv <game_edu at igda.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 11:58:56 AM
Subject: Re: [game_edu] placement rates (was Introduction - Sheri Rubin)

For us, it's 70%, regardless of field of study. And when the accreditors (or whatever they're called) come by, we have to do a lot of paperwork so we can show them our rubrics, syllabi, etc., and all of that is independent of field - they want to make sure that we have measures and process and aren't at all interested (as far as i can tell) in the details of the field (the accreditors certify or delist the school as a whole, not a program)

Another issue we've had (and continue to have) is teacher degrees. Honestly, we have people with advanced degrees and people with experience but rarely both. Some of our best people do not have college degrees. An Emmy or an Oscar or a series of big name titles but not degrees. Accreditation doesn't like that (for very understandable reasons) but for us it (combined with placement rates) meant laying off some very good staff last Christmas and turning down some good people that were willing to work for what we pay :)

Of course, we still have those people, we just hired them back as adjuncts. Same teaching load (25 contact/in-class hours/quarter) but significantly less pay and no benefits. i'm not sure what the accreditation rules are on degrees for adjuncts but for right now that's where several of those people are

-b



On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 10:49 AM, Miller, Gary <gmiller at fullsail.com> wrote:


>I believe that the "folks" are from the group that we are accredited through as a University.  I believe that each program has to prove the 70% number it is not an across the board number. But this is not my expertise ...

>

>

>>-----Original Message-----

>>From: game_edu-bounces at igda.org [mailto:game_edu-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Sarah_Lemarie at scee.net

>>

>Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 11:27 AM

>>To: IGDA Game Education Listserv

>>Subject: Re: [game_edu] placement rates (was Introduction - Sheri Rubin)

>

>

>>Who are "the accreditation folks", though? Does it vary for each discipline?

>

>>Sarah Lemarié

>>Infrastructure Manager & Academic Liaison Sony Computer Entertainment Europe Limited

>>t: +44 (0)20 7859 5200

>>e: sarah_lemarie at scee.net

>>w: http://research.scee.net

>

>

>

>

>

>

>>        "Miller, Gary" <gmiller at fullsail.com>

>>Sent by: game_edu-bounces at igda.org

>

>>23/09/2009 16:25

>>Please respond to

>>IGDA Game Education Listserv <game_edu at igda.org>

>

>

>>To

>>"IGDA Game Education Listserv" <game_edu at igda.org>

>>cc

>>Subject

>>Re: [game_edu] placement rates (was Introduction - Sheri Rubin)

>

>

>

>

>

>

>>I am at the limit of my knowledge on what count but I know that if we

>>fall below 70% we will loose our accreditation so we push to find out

>>what our graduates are doing.  There is always a bigger push when we get

>>audited by the accreditation folks.

>

>>-----Original Message-----

>>From: game_edu-bounces at igda.org [mailto:game_edu-bounces at igda.org] On

>>Behalf Of baylor wetzel

>>Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 10:49 AM

>>To: IGDA Game Education Listserv

>>Subject: Re: [game_edu] placement rates (was Introduction - Sheri Rubin)

>

>>Is that an accreditation issue? We're also required to have a 70%

>>placement "in field" (and we sometimes fight over what counts as

>>in-field), but i thought it was an arbitrary number our school chose. i

>>hadn't realized that it was set by accreditation

>

>>One issue i'm unsure of is how we handle "self-employed". Our program

>>explicitly focuses on small game companies - we place people in large

>>companies from time to time but we realize the midwest isn't the gaming

>>hotspot so we try to make them well rounded and prepare them for small,

>>indie and casual game jobs. A lot of students start their own game

>>companies. The question is whether to count those as being employed.

>>Someone with a staff of five, some venture capital, a real office and a

>>publisher relationship working 40 hours a week should count but someone

>>who has a day job at Walmart, tinkers with a game idea a few hours a

>>week and claims to have a game company should not. i don't know what

>>criteria my school uses (or how it can even verify the facts), so

>>placement rates should probably be taken with a grain of salt

>

>>-baylor

>

>

>

>>On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 8:01 AM, Miller, Gary <gmiller at fullsail.com>

>>wrote:

>

>

>>                Our accreditation is contingent on maintaining a 70% placement

>>rate but

>>                I do not know how that is measured. If you email Coble, Rob

>>                rcoble at fullsail.com he might be able to give you some stats and

>>point

>>                you to the measures.  I teach Operating Systems and Machine

>>Architecture

>>                II in our Game Development program but we do have a Game Design

>>Program

>>                and a Masters in Game Development which I do not know much

>>about.

>

>>                -----Original Message-----

>>                From: game_edu-bounces at igda.org

>>[mailto:game_edu-bounces at igda.org] On

>>                Behalf Of Dan Carreker

>>                Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 5:54 PM

>>                To: IGDA Game Education Listserv

>>                Subject: Re: [game_edu] placement rates (was Introduction -

>>Sheri Rubin)

>

>>                Baylor,

>

>>                I think you have some great points here.

>

>>                USC has a 49% placement rate?  (making sure I understand you

>>correctly)

>>                Does anyone have any other data on placement rates? I'm giving a

>>talk

>>                soon on how to choose a game design school and I'm sure this

>>question

>>                will come up.

>

>

>

>>                Dan Carreker

>>                www.NarrativeDesigns.com

>>                "If I had only six minutes to live, I wouldn't brood.

>>                 I'd type a little faster."  - Asimov

>

>

>>                       ----- Original Message -----

>>                       From: baylor wetzel <mailto:baylorw at gmail.com>

>>                       To: amenezes at imagecampus.com.ar ; IGDA Game Education

>>Listserv

>>                <mailto:game_edu at igda.org>

>>                       Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 2:45 PM

>>                       Subject: Re: [game_edu] Introduction - Sheri Rubin

>

>>                       >In the end, we are training future customers for these

>>                       > companies and it would be wiser to consider us as

>>                       > partners, not customers, don't you thnk?

>

>>                       i realize i'm going to seem like a tremendous jerk, but

>>i'm not

>>                sure that it is a real partnership. Probably the top issue our

>>school is

>>                facing is placement - most of our students just aren't getting

>>jobs with

>>                game companies. This situation is true for most of the game

>>schools i

>>                know of (USC's GamePipe, based in LA next to 49% of all North

>>American

>>                game jobs, being the big exception). i don't think my school has

>>a lot

>>                of leverage with game companies and although i wish they'd give

>>us

>>                licenses for old games, snippets of source code, free (or cheap)

>>copies

>>                of Unreal 2007, etc., i honestly don't see any reason why they

>>should

>

>>                       It's also worth noting that publishers aren't developers

>>and

>>                developers are often very, very small and frequently go out of

>>business,

>>                so setting up a relationship with most is fairly difficult. Many

>>of the

>>                people they hire aren't people with game degrees, they're

>>friends and

>>                talented people (probably without a degree) who send in a

>>fantastic

>>                portfolio. Maybe they should hire someone different (although

>>there's a

>>                good argument that they shouldn't), but they don't. So what's

>>their

>>                incentive to take the (not insubstantial) time to manage

>>relationships

>>                with game schools, especially given how many have popped up in

>>the last

>>                few years (the growth in the number of game schools has been

>>truly

>>                dizzying)?

>

>>                       We use cheap tools (Flash, Torque, the level editor in

>>Unreal

>>                2004) and not very cheap educational versions of tools such as

>>Photoshop

>>                and 3DSMax. If we want to show them "classic" games, we show

>>them movies

>>                and screenshots of them (asking a student to invest 40 hours per

>>game to

>>                find those classic bits like the bathroom scene in Deus Ex or

>>the low

>>                int dialog option in Fallout is fairly unrealistic) or, to study

>>                concepts, we make our clones. As much as we wish we could get

>>Mudbox, a

>>                motion capture system, the source code to Half-Life and

>>unlimited free

>>                copies of Monkey Island, we'd be happy with just the game

>>companies

>>                showing up at our career fair

>

>>                       -baylor

>

>

>

>

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