[game_edu] Industry luminaries slam universities' games courses
Ian Schreiber
ai864 at yahoo.com
Mon Oct 18 17:39:28 EDT 2010
Keep looking - it varies from school to school. While "testing out" of a class
may not be supported by all schools, at least some programs of study will let
you customize to some degree (e.g. if the major has two tracks, take the one
that you haven't already done professionally so you're at least learning
something new :).
Another thing you can do, if you're looking for education but not necessarily a
degree, is to ask if you can take (or even audit) a single class that's of
interest to you. Course prerequisites can almost always be waived, either by
professor's permission or department chair's signature; check the school policy
for that, most put their student handbook online. The schools I've seen all
allow some kind of "non-degree-seeking" status that allows you to take courses
there, although they will kindly ask you to formally matriculate once you've
passed a certain number of credit hours.
Or is this just me, and I happened to be lucky?
- Ian
________________________________
From: Michael Lubker <snowballz.game at gmail.com>
To: game_edu at igda.org
Sent: Mon, October 18, 2010 5:16:11 PM
Subject: Re: [game_edu] Industry luminaries slam universities' games courses
My biggest issue (and I'm in the US to be clear) is that for someone who's been
in the industry there are no options to test out of courses or anything - at
least at the "best" schools. I was interested in Full Sail's online courses but
they have no options to evaluate what you've done in the industry and set you up
with a custom course of study. I'm not picking an ONLINE course to go through a
40hr wk intensive and pay for it when I should be being paid for work as a
producer already... there are things I would like to learn and not just from
internet tutorials but I guess that's just not going to happen. :/
Also, http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2010/10/16/910881/-Starting-out
~M
On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 11:04 AM, <game_edu-request at igda.org> wrote:
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>----------------------------------------------------------------------
> IGDA Education SIG
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Test Message, Please Ignore (Sheri Rubin)
> 2. Re: Industry luminaries slam universities' games courses
> (Mike Reddy)
> 3. Re: Industry luminaries slam universities' games courses
> (Darius Kazemi)
> 4. Re: Industry luminaries slam universities' games courses
> (Ian Schreiber)
> 5. Re: Industry luminaries slam universities' games courses
> (Casey ODonnell)
> 6. Re: Industry luminaries slam universities' games courses
> (Grace, Lindsay Mr.)
> 7. New book on game sound (Grimshaw, Mark)
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Message: 1
>Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 23:35:07 -0500
>From: Sheri Rubin <sheri at designdirectdeliver.com>
>Subject: [game_edu] Test Message, Please Ignore
>To: game_edu at igda.org
>Message-ID: <4CBBCE7B.6040102 at designdirectdeliver.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
>
> Trying to help solve a problem of a list member not getting list
>messages. :)
>
>Sheri
>
>--
>*Sheri Rubin*
>Founder and CEO
>
>*Design Direct Deliver*
>Website: http://www.designdirectdeliver.com
>Email: sheri at designdirectdeliver.com <mailto:sheri at designdirectdeliver.com>
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>Message: 2
>Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 07:11:07 +0000
>From: Mike Reddy <Mike.Reddy at newport.ac.uk>
>Subject: Re: [game_edu] Industry luminaries slam universities' games
> courses
>To: "<game_edu at igda.org>" <game_edu at igda.org>
>Message-ID: <B30FF08B-6839-44E1-8D5D-F83B428A258C at newport.ac.uk>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>Yusef
><<mailto:yusuf.pisan at uts.edu.au>yusuf.pisan at uts.edu.au<mailto:yusuf.pisan at uts.edu.au>>
> is right to ask for comments. Every time this kind of crap gets rolled out by
>the game journos I go into rant mode.
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>Message: 3
>Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 07:44:30 -0400
>From: Darius Kazemi <darius.kazemi at gmail.com>
>Subject: Re: [game_edu] Industry luminaries slam universities' games
> courses
>To: IGDA Game Education Listserv <game_edu at igda.org>
>Message-ID:
> <AANLkTinHrrQ=R11hUEL5KhbPVeaGc_FThF8XwRBWyj_5 at mail.gmail.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>On Sun, Oct 17, 2010 at 11:26 PM, Yusuf Pisan <yusuf.pisan at uts.edu.au>wrote:
>
>> "We do not need them teaching a philosophy about games, we need
>> computer science, art and animation." -Ian Livingstone
>>
>
>I'm glad that Ian Livingstone does not want to hire people with a
>broad-based education capable of critical thought and problem solving. More
>for me to hire, ya know?
>
>-Darius
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>------------------------------
>
>Message: 4
>Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 07:42:09 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Ian Schreiber <ai864 at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Re: [game_edu] Industry luminaries slam universities' games
> courses
>To: IGDA Game Education Listserv <game_edu at igda.org>
>Message-ID: <172159.99448.qm at web39705.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>The whole article reads as a bit sensationalized to me. Yes, some so-called
>"game schools" suck, they are just slapping the word "game" on their program to
>try to boost enrollment without giving any thought or effort to making the
>program relevant (no one on this list, of course ;-). I think that is what this
>other Ian is getting at -- not that a liberal arts education is bad, but that a
>school that bills itself as Game Development that actually teaches Game Studies
>is not doing anyone any favors, and I would agree with that much at least. It
>would be wonderful if we could all have consistent terminology in the naming of
>our respective departments and majors.
>
>But this ignores that many schools do have quality programs, are teaching what
>they say they're teaching, and genuinely make an effort to produce students who
>are well educated and valuable to the industry that they are trying to break
>into.
>
>I'm particularly surprised that this article came out of the UK. Maybe I'm
>wrong, but my impression was that there were actual governmental guidelines for
>academic programs of study (including games) over there, which would presumably
>make it a lot harder for a school to just be completely useless?
>
>- Ian
>
>
>
>
>________________________________
>From: Darius Kazemi <darius.kazemi at gmail.com>
>To: IGDA Game Education Listserv <game_edu at igda.org>
>Sent: Mon, October 18, 2010 7:44:30 AM
>Subject: Re: [game_edu] Industry luminaries slam universities' games courses
>
>
>On Sun, Oct 17, 2010 at 11:26 PM, Yusuf Pisan <yusuf.pisan at uts.edu.au> wrote:
>
>"We do not need them teaching a philosophy about games, we need
>>computer science, art and animation." -Ian Livingstone
>>
>
>I'm glad that Ian Livingstone does not want to hire people with a broad-based
>education capable of critical thought and problem solving. More for me to hire,
>ya know?
>
>-Darius
>
>
>
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>------------------------------
>
>Message: 5
>Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 15:02:51 +0000
>From: Casey ODonnell <caseyod at uga.edu>
>Subject: Re: [game_edu] Industry luminaries slam universities' games
> courses
>To: IGDA Game Education Listserv <game_edu at igda.org>
>Message-ID: <AF762907-7CEB-4982-9FA5-C8D54FFDA361 at uga.edu>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>On Oct 17, 2010, at 11:26 PM, Yusuf Pisan wrote:
>
>>http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2010-10-15-industry-luminaries-slam-universities-games-courses
>>s
>>
>> "We do not need them teaching a philosophy about games, we need
>> computer science, art and animation."
>
>So the full article isn't as bad as that one line, because in a lot of respects,
>comments like, "They've crossed out the word media studies and put computer game
>studies," is true. So here are my thoughts...
>
>What the article has correct:
>
>1.) There are a lot of awful classes out there being offered by people who don't
>really know anything about game development, game design, game programming, or
>game art/animation. This is even happening here at my institution, something I
>consistently battle against.
>
>2.) The game industry hasn't done a good job of really reaching out to academia.
>But that is always a two way street. Its about fashioning, as Darius notes,
>programs that create strong critical thinkers who want to make games rather than
>meat for the grinder, which doesn't really even work, as Peter Molyneux comments
>in the article, "The games industry changes so quickly that, by the time a
>student has gone through their three year course, the games industry could have
>changed radically." For most people in academia, the game industry is opaque so
>they have ideas about what it is or what it does that bears little resemblance
>to reality.
>
>3.) Enrollment in CS programs IS on the decline. Same for other areas as well
>critical to games. Basically if it is technically difficult, it is largely on
>the decline. But CS isn't all of game development. It's 30-60% depending on the
>studio/project. Art and game design are there too. Even Ian left design off his
>list, which is odd.
>
>What the article has wrong or "luminaries (Ian Livingstone) has wrong:
>
>1.) The job of academia is not to produce laborers, but thinkers capable of
>working or throwing the whole thing on its side and doing something crazy and
>new (people Darius wants to hire...).
>
>It really bothers me that game development (as a broad category) and game art,
>game engineering, and game design largely get the shaft as areas of expertise.
>There are philosophical/theoretical (come on, object oriented design is
>theoretical if not philosophical) ideas that span areas of application, but
>there are also aspects specific to game development that should be incorporated
>into a program worth its salt. Many people teaching classes don't even realize
>that the IGDA exists or that there has been an IGDA curriculum framework since
>2002.
>
>[as a side note, and something I'm bringing up at Meaningful Play this week, is
>that a lot of researchers now chasing "game" funding from the NSF and NIH don't
>see game development as an area of expertise either, so the fact that people are
>making crappy classes simply mirrors a lack of understanding and respect more
>broadly about what game development is. They're just submitting crappy grants
>instead of making crappy classes.]
>
>That isn't to say that we shouldn't be teaching media studies to game students,
>more better, help them understand what media studies helps them see and what it
>obscures from view.
>
>Ultimately I think this article is about universities offering "game"
>classes/programs that have little to do, really, with game development more
>broadly. That's a good critique. Unfortunately a single line like the one above
>masks the real critique.
>
>Best.
>Casey
>
>--
>Casey O'Donnell, Ph.D.
>Assistant Professor, Department of Telecommunications
>Grady College, University of Georgia
>
>http://www.caseyodonnell.org
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 6
>Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 11:44:35 -0400
>From: "Grace, Lindsay Mr." <gracel at muohio.edu>
>Subject: Re: [game_edu] Industry luminaries slam universities' games
> courses
>To: IGDA Game Education Listserv <game_edu at igda.org>
>Message-ID:
> <13C780D4FE7E4C40AD5A42D30D5CB2C56BAA58D589 at FACCMS2.it.muohio.edu>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
>
>I feel very strongly about this topic and the challenge of educating students
>for careers. I've taught traditional college and career education schools. I put
>my thoughts to paper here:
>http://www.mindtoggle.com/blog/2010/10/career-training-vs-education-case-study-in-games/
>
>
>A preview below:
>
>The challenges of educating students in game design and development are very
>substantial. Unlike other academic disciplines there is a circus of invested
>parties, each demanding its own objectives. Most Students want jobs. Industry
>wants well trained, ready to roll students at low cost. Academic institutions
>want to meet the expectations of accrediting bodies and institutionalized
>academics.
>
>The problem is that no one wants to pay the cost. Students don?t want to risk 4
>years of time and thousands of dollars for a highly competitive job, with a high
>burn out rate and little security. Industry doesn?t always want to invest in
>academic institutions by volunteering employees to teach, or by writing checks
>that assure a quality employee pipeline. Academic institutions don?t always
>want to ally themselves with game companies, who may consider their immediate
>needs over the long term needs of students (aka potential employees).
>
>The problem is easily expandable to a broader question about the role of
>education. Does education serve as job training or life training? Many
>employers want job training. Many students think they want job training, but
>they don?t know what they want to do (who does at 18?). If students do know
>what they want, they may not be well informed (e.g. the myth that working at a
>game company means playing games for a living). The fact is, most people change
>jobs.
>
>Academic institutions then take two basic forms. Those that respond to the
>immediate demand for job training, and those that don?t. Institutions like Full
>Sail and my former employer, EDMC (the Art Institutes) provide job training.
> The problem with 4 year job training (aka career education) is that its 4 years
>of job training adapted to a traditional college structure ? and it?s not at the
>job. Four years is a long time to train, especially when you?re paying for that
>training. Most career colleges are for profit institutions. So, in concept, they
>ask students to pay them for the opportunity to have a job. Something seems
>backwards about this. These students will help produce profit for their
>eventual employers ? so why would they have to pay for that right? Moreover,
>why would any game company rant about how these students aren?t properly
>prepared? The students are essentially victims of a for profit system, twice.
>First they not only pay for getting training to work at
> a game company (or web design firm, or graphics design studio, etc), but their
>work also produces profit for the school to which they pay tuition. Secondly,
>once they (and if they) get a job with a company, the company makes money from
>their work.
>
>--
>Lindsay D. Grace
>Armstrong Professor of Fine Arts
>Miami University School of Fine Arts
>Armstrong Institute for Interactive Media Studies
>
>206 Hiestand Hall
>Oxford, Ohio, 45056
>
>http://www.LGrace.com
>
>________________________________________
>From: game_edu-bounces at igda.org [game_edu-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Yusuf
>Pisan [yusuf.pisan at uts.edu.au]
>Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2010 11:26 PM
>To: IGDA Game Education Listserv
>Subject: [game_edu] Industry luminaries slam universities' games courses
>
>An article pushing for more hard-core skills in game education.
>
>http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2010-10-15-industry-luminaries-slam-universities-games-courses
>
>
>"We do not need them teaching a philosophy about games, we need
>computer science, art and animation."
>
>It is very very difficult to get the blended education right.
>Universities are much better placed to focus on their existing
>expertise and train students as programmers, artists and animators.
>
>Comments?
>
>Yusuf
>
>--
>A/Professor Yusuf Pisan
>Games Studio
>University of Technology, Sydney
>http://gamesstudio.org/yusufpisan
>
>==================================
>
>Industry luminaries slam universities' games courses
>
>A number of leading UK games industry figures have highlighted the
>problems with education and training for prospective young developers.
>
>In a report by Eurogamer TV (watchable below), Eidos life president
>Ian Livingstone, currently working on a government-endorsed skills
>review, claimed that "the problem with a lot of universities is they
>offer sort of generalist courses.
>
>"They've crossed out the word media studies and put computer game
>studies. But they haven't actually had a dialogue with industry. We do
>not need them teaching a philosophy about games, we need computer
>science, art and animation."
>
>Observed Frontier's David Braben, "there's been more than a 50 per
>cent drop off in the number of applicants to computer science courses
>at university. And that's in the backdrop of a rise of 24 per cent in
>university entrants.
>
>"There are a lot incentives for universities to increase the number of
>students, because universities are now paid per seat and... there is
>no quality test for what that seat is worth in the sense of what is
>taught. So some subjects are a lot easier and a lot cheaper to teach
>than others."
>
>Mastertronic's Andy Payne felt that there was not enough dialogue
>between universities and developers. "I would argue that our education
>needs more direct contact with the games industry, and I think that's
>down to the games industry to properly reach out to higher education,
>and then higher education understanding what the games industry really
>needs.
>
>"It's not that we haven't got the talent, we just don't produce the
>finished article."
>
>Students at GameLab, supported by London Metropolitan University, were
>critical of other courses. Said trainee Mark Rance, "I've had friends
>other universities that were a bit disillusioned by them, finding they
>were generally a lot of theory and they just ended up essentially
>being able to review games by the end of it."
>
>By contrast, Lionhead's Peter Molyneux was concerned that some courses
>were too specialised to be future-proofed. "The games industry changes
>so quickly that, by the time a student has gone through their three
>year course, the games industry could have changed radically."
>
>The full report, which also investigates controversial course
>Train2Game, discusses the success of Abertay University and talks to
>MP Ed Vaizey about government support for the games industry, is
>below.
>_______________________________________________
>game_edu mailing list
>game_edu at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_edu
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 7
>Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 16:34:37 +0100
>From: "Grimshaw, Mark" <M.N.Grimshaw at bolton.ac.uk>
>Subject: [game_edu] New book on game sound
>To: "Games Research Network" <GAMESNETWORK at uta.fi>,
> <game_edu at igda.org>
>Message-ID:
> <25C3F98C1CBB1E458E71AA65CAA32E6907350A84 at YETI.bolton.ac.uk>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>Dear all,
>
>
>
>I'm pleased to announce the publication of the anthology: Game Sound Technology
>and Player Interaction: Concepts and Developments.
>
>
>
>The official release from the publishers is below and the Amazon.co.uk link is:
>
>http://www.amazon.co.uk/Game-Sound-Technology-Player-Interaction/dp/161692828X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1287415194&sr=8-1
>
>
>
>
>To forestall the type of complaint I've seen in the past on this list about IGI
>prices (this one is ?122.50 on Amazon and, of course, well worth the price) and
>to answer the (somewhat crass) comment I saw posted after the last IGI book I
>saw advertised here ('don't these authors realize what type of outfit IGI is' -
>following a comment about the price of that book and to which I said I would
>respond once my book was out), I have the following to say. They may charge a
>high price for the print book and online versions but have a very, very generous
>Open Access policy allowing each contributor to post the full, post-print
>chapter on OA institutional/personal servers. Assuming each contributor does
>this, the astute reader, with a little effort, could download each chapter for
>free. The two chapters I was involved in are already available.
>
>
>
>For anyone considering working with IGI, I heartily recommend them: courteous,
>prompt, on the ball and helpful.
>
>
>
>Regards,
>
>
>
>Mark
>
>
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
>Sounding Off: Game Sound Indicator of Player Engagement
>
>
>
>Hershey, PA - October 12, 2010 - IGI Global, an international publishing company
>specializing in high-quality research publications in the fields of computer
>science and information technology management, is pleased to announce the
>release of Game Sound Technology and Player Interaction: Concepts and
>Developments, edited by Mark Grimshaw (University of Bolton, UK).
>
>
>
>According to Dr. Grimshaw, "From the simplest of puzzle games to the most
>detailed and convoluted of game worlds, sound is the indicator par excellence of
>player engagement and interaction with the structures of the game and the rules
>of play." He continues, explaining, "Academic writing about game sound,
>especially its analytical and theoretical underpinnings, is a developing area
>and this is reflected by the diversity of theoretical methodologies and the
>variety of terminology in use."
>
>
>
>Game Sound Technology and Player Interaction: Concepts and Developments
>researches both how game sound affects a player psychologically, emotionally,
>and physiologically, and how this relationship itself impacts the design of
>computer game sound and the development of technology. This compilation applies
>beyond the realm of video games to other types of immersive sound, such as
>soundscape design, gambling machines, and emotive and fantastical sound, just to
>name a few. The application for this research is wide-ranging,
>interdisciplinary, and of primary importance for academics and practitioners
>searching for the right sounds.
>
>
>
>For more information on Game Sound Technology and Player Interaction: Concepts
>and Developments, please visit
>http://www.igi-global.com/Bookstore/TitleDetails.aspx?TitleId=41766
><http://www.igi-global.com/Bookstore/TitleDetails.aspx?TitleId=41766> .
>
>
>
>About IGI Global:
>
>Since 1988, IGI Global has provided comprehensive research not just on computer
>science and information technology management, but also on how information
>technology affects human activities and interactions. IGI Global is a leading
>multimedia publisher of books, reference works, journals, encyclopedias,
>teaching cases, proceedings, and databases covering the areas of education,
>social science, library science, healthcare, business management, public
>administration, and computer science. Information on all of IGI Global's
>resources can be found at www.igi-global.com <http://www.igi-global.com> . IGI
>Global's offices are located in Hershey, PA and New York City, NY, USA.
>
>
>
>Follow us on Twitter <http://twitter.com/igiglobal> and Facebook
><http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/IGI-Global/138206739534176?ref=ts> to receive
>updates from IGI Global.
>
>
>
>Order inquiries may be directed to: 717-533-8845 x100, cust at igi-global.com
><mailto:cust at igi-global.com> , or to book wholesalers or journal subscription
>agents.
>
>
>
><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
>
>
>
>--
>
>Dr. Mark Grimshaw
>
>Reader in Creative Technologies
>
>School of Business & Creative Technologies
>
>University of Bolton
>
>Work: http://www.bolton.ac.uk/gcct/
>
>Personal: http://www.wikindx.com
>
>
>
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>
>
>End of game_edu Digest, Vol 73, Issue 2
>***************************************
>
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~ "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty
is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" - Benjamin Franklin
~ "In conflict, straightforward actions generally lead to engagement, surprising
actions generally lead to victory." - Sun Tzu
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