[game_edu] SCRUM in Game Development (Sarah Hatton)

Sarah Hatton srhatton at gmail.com
Mon Jan 10 20:16:37 EST 2011


SCRUM is a wonderful, but not perfect, process. I really enjoy feeling a
sense of accomplishment every week. To keep on track and focused, I think
Sprint Goals are important. They are like writing an X, or elevator pitch,
for just two weeks of work, that describe the overall focus of the work in
the sprint, and, having those goals can often help understand what is a
priority for working on that sprint, and what can be postponed. Sometimes a
sprint needs to be planned with some a priori decisions on what tasks are
needed for a feature, and then the real requirements arise, which can be
frustrating when tasks blow out of proportion.

I actually disagree about the ebb and flow issue. I think using scrum would
really help students stay on track and prevent those unnecessary crunch days
and all-nighters. I think it would also help students learn about emergent
roles in problem solving and how to become more efficient. Agile is a great
way to promote a lot of reflection too (due to post-sprint retrospectives
and daily stand ups). If you are teaching media, then I think it is a great
way to put to the test a lot of the theories of Donald Schon
(reflection-in-action). Plus, there is always a teeny bit of down time
between sprints, if you can manage to have them end on a Friday. Then
students are at least guaranteed a class where they have a break every other
weekend (if you are doing two-week sprints).

The only worry I have for agile/scrum in an academic setting is that roles
get too defined. Students do need to have a chance to experiment and expand
their current skills. Due to the very clearly defined roles in scrum, I
would worry that some students would not try to go out of their comfort
zones to learn a new skill during the game dev process. This is the best
time for students to try 3d modeling, when they are used to maybe writing,
or a little scripting when they are used to painting...etc

-- Sarah H. EA-Pogo (formerly ASU grad student)



On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 12:33 PM, <game_edu-request at igda.org> wrote:


> Send game_edu mailing list submissions to

> game_edu at igda.org

>

> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit

> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_edu

> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to

> game_edu-request at igda.org

>

> You can reach the person managing the list at

> game_edu-owner at igda.org

>

> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific

> than "Re: Contents of game_edu digest..."

>

>

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------

> IGDA Education SIG

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------

>

> Today's Topics:

>

> 1. Re: SCRUM in Game Development (Philip Tan)

> 2. Re: SCRUM in Game Development (Anthony Hart-Jones)

> 3. Re: SCRUM in Game Development (Masuch, Maic, Prof. Dr.)

> 4. Re: SCRUM in Game Development (Adam Parker)

> 5. CfP: CT 2011 - SAME 2011 - Semantic Ambient Media Experience

> - Brisbane, Austrial - 29/06-02/07 (artur.lugmayr at tut.fi)

>

>

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------

>

> Message: 1

> Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2011 16:11:08 -0500

> From: Philip Tan <philip at mit.edu>

> Subject: Re: [game_edu] SCRUM in Game Development

> To: IGDA Game Education Listserv <game_edu at igda.org>

> Cc: Games Research Network <GAMESNETWORK at uta.fi>

> Message-ID:

> <AANLkTimx4=RX1V1iuvLMwjp-D456HRjU34jcMzQewm6K at mail.gmail.com>

> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

>

> I've co-written a couple of papers describing our experience of using Scrum

> with students. From the most recent to the oldest:

>

>

> http://gambit.mit.edu/readme/Iterative%20Game%20Design%20in%20Education%20-%20Print%20version.pdf

>

> http://gambit.mit.edu/readme/readme/pdfs/Fernandez%20-

> %20Situated%20Learning%20and%20Videogame%20Curriculum.pdf

>

> http://gambit.mit.edu/readme/Chap%2013%20-%20Jenkins%20et%20al.pdf

>

> One thing about Scrum is that there really isn't any downtime built into

> the

> typical sprint cycle. As soon as one ends, you're immediately planning the

> next. In practice, this is dramatically different from the ebb and flow of

> most college coursework, where effort tends to ramp up immediately prior to

> a big milestone or assessment. Students are very used to cycles of

> crunching

> hard before deadlines and crashing afterwards.

>

> So one of my ongoing challenges is getting students used to sustainable

> development practices -- admittedly more of an Agile tenet than

> specifically

> a Scrum practice. Scrum teams that try to do the typical student ramp-up

> cycle sprint after sprint are constantly operating at a diminished capacity

> due to illnesses, oversleeping, and less-than-lucid meetings. I would argue

> that it's not really in the spirit of agile development.

>

> As an instructor, I find myself really having to hammer this point home

> early and often. It's really difficult to eliminate all crunch, but in my

> experience, it's possible to teach students to recognize crunch as a

> process

> that has gone wrong and needs to be fixed, instead of simply accepting it

> as

> a regular part of the work. I prefer to have students guiltily admit that

> they crunched instead of wearing it as some sort of badge of honor, because

> they'll try to plan the next sprint better.

>

> It's also good to have several different teams running simultaneously and

> have their scrummasters meet up periodically to share tips; it makes it

> easier for them to realize that their teams are facing certain problems

> that

> they might not have otherwise recognized.

> ----

> Philip Tan

> Singapore-MIT GAMBIT Game Lab

>

>

> On Sat, Jan 8, 2011 at 1:48 PM, Nic Colley <Nic.Colley at cpcc.edu> wrote:

>

> > Happy New Year All!

> >

> > What lessons have you learned while using SCRUM and any best practices?

> >

> > I ask this as I am currently building a class "Agile Game Development".

> In

> > this class I will be focusing on SCRUM with projects while talking about

> > other development practices. I am able to pull from my experiences with

> > SCRUM, but to better serve the students, I thought I should ask the

> > community on their experiences.

> >

> > Thanks,

> > Nic Colley

> > Faculty, Simulation & Game Development

> > Nic.Colley at cpcc.edu

> > _______________________________________________

> > game_edu mailing list

> > game_edu at igda.org

> > http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_edu

> >

> -------------- next part --------------

> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...

> URL: <

> http://seven.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_edu/attachments/20110108/49652c8f/attachment-0001.html

> >

>

> ------------------------------

>

> Message: 2

> Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2011 14:20:15 +0000

> From: Anthony Hart-Jones <tony at dragonstalon.co.uk>

> Subject: Re: [game_edu] SCRUM in Game Development

> To: IGDA Game Education Listserv <game_edu at igda.org>

> Message-ID: <4D29C41F.5010003 at dragonstalon.co.uk>

> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

>

> I'd say that sounds like the UK games industry to me, especially in

> AAA studios. The last place I worked, we had got used to a cycle of

> hectic crunch before every deadline, then company-sponsored 'thank-you'

> activities (paint-ball, karting, etc.) as a reward for hitting the

> deadlines. When we shifted to an Agile cycle (Scrum-lite, the COO

> called it), the cycle of crunch and crash persisted.

> When you have a three-week sprint-cycle, that is a very strange thing

> to see...

>

> In my experience, many AAA studios are still more like university than

> most other business environments. It may be something to do with the

> need to encourage creativity, or it could just be that designers like me

> are a bad influence on otherwise disciplined programmers...

>

> On 08/01/2011 21:11, Philip Tan wrote:

> > One thing about Scrum is that there really isn't any downtime built

> > into the typical sprint cycle. As soon as one ends, you're immediately

> > planning the next. In practice, this is dramatically different from

> > the ebb and flow of most college coursework, where effort tends to

> > ramp up immediately prior to a big milestone or assessment. Students

> > are very used to cycles of crunching hard before deadlines and

> > crashing afterwards.

>

>

> ------------------------------

>

> Message: 3

> Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2011 15:50:07 +0000

> From: "Masuch, Maic, Prof. Dr." <maic.masuch at uni-due.de>

> Subject: Re: [game_edu] SCRUM in Game Development

> To: IGDA Game Education Listserv <game_edu at igda.org>

> Message-ID:

> <DD88DB1892ACFE4A8A1399F3AD49176305FC3695 at ccr01.win.uni-due.de>

> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>

> Hi Nic,

> you might want to have a look at our 2010 FDG paper

>

> http://www.uni-due.de/~hk0377/papers/Schild_ABC-Sprints_Adapting_Scrum_to_Academic_Game_Development_Courses_FDG2010.pdf<http://www.uni-due.de/%7Ehk0377/papers/Schild_ABC-Sprints_Adapting_Scrum_to_Academic_Game_Development_Courses_FDG2010.pdf>

> where we summed up our experiences of some 3 years in teaching game

> development courses as part of a M.Sc. computer science curriculum.

> We found out that you have to adopt the scrum methodology to an academic

> environment, but all in all I see a fundamental rise in quality and

> effectiveness of projects.

>

> Best,

> Maic

>

>

>

>

> Prof. Dr. Maic Masuch

> Professor for Multimedia Technology|Entertainment Computing

> Department for Computer Science and Cognitive Science

> Faculty of Engineering

> University of Duisburg-Essen

>

> Forsthausweg 2, D-47057 Duisburg, Germany

> Tel. +49 (0) 203 / 379 - 1434 - Fax +49 (0) 203 / 379 - 3557

>

>

>

>

>

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: game_edu-bounces at igda.org [mailto:game_edu-bounces at igda.org] On

> Behalf Of Nic Colley

> Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2011 7:48 PM

> To: IGDA Game Education Listserv; Games Research Network

> Subject: [game_edu] SCRUM in Game Development

>

> Happy New Year All!

>

> What lessons have you learned while using SCRUM and any best practices?

>

> I ask this as I am currently building a class "Agile Game Development". In

> this class I will be focusing on SCRUM with projects while talking about

> other development practices. I am able to pull from my experiences with

> SCRUM, but to better serve the students, I thought I should ask the

> community on their experiences.

>

> Thanks,

> Nic Colley

> Faculty, Simulation & Game Development

> Nic.Colley at cpcc.edu

> _______________________________________________

> game_edu mailing list

> game_edu at igda.org

> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_edu

>

>

> ------------------------------

>

> Message: 4

> Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 10:46:26 +1100

> From: Adam Parker <aparker at qantmcollege.edu.au>

> Subject: Re: [game_edu] SCRUM in Game Development

> To: IGDA Game Education Listserv <game_edu at igda.org>

> Message-ID:

> <AANLkTimaPdiHbV4NJPELfdpDPMaMrRr3wu=G2ZxK1dzh at mail.gmail.com>

> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

>

> Maic,

>

> Thanks for the work. There are parallels to what we're already doing, so

> we'll certainly benefit from the rigor here.

>

> Cheers,

> Adam

>

> On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 2:50 AM, Masuch, Maic, Prof. Dr. <

> maic.masuch at uni-due.de> wrote:

>

> > Hi Nic,

> > you might want to have a look at our 2010 FDG paper

> >

> >

> http://www.uni-due.de/~hk0377/papers/Schild_ABC-Sprints_Adapting_Scrum_to_Academic_Game_Development_Courses_FDG2010.pdf<http://www.uni-due.de/%7Ehk0377/papers/Schild_ABC-Sprints_Adapting_Scrum_to_Academic_Game_Development_Courses_FDG2010.pdf>

> > where we summed up our experiences of some 3 years in teaching game

> > development courses as part of a M.Sc. computer science curriculum.

> > We found out that you have to adopt the scrum methodology to an academic

> > environment, but all in all I see a fundamental rise in quality and

> > effectiveness of projects.

> >

> > Best,

> > Maic

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Prof. Dr. Maic Masuch

> > Professor for Multimedia Technology|Entertainment Computing

> > Department for Computer Science and Cognitive Science

> > Faculty of Engineering

> > University of Duisburg-Essen

> >

> > Forsthausweg 2, D-47057 Duisburg, Germany

> > Tel. +49 (0) 203 / 379 - 1434 - Fax +49 (0) 203 / 379 - 3557

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > -----Original Message-----

> > From: game_edu-bounces at igda.org [mailto:game_edu-bounces at igda.org] On

> > Behalf Of Nic Colley

> > Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2011 7:48 PM

> > To: IGDA Game Education Listserv; Games Research Network

> > Subject: [game_edu] SCRUM in Game Development

> >

> > Happy New Year All!

> >

> > What lessons have you learned while using SCRUM and any best practices?

> >

> > I ask this as I am currently building a class "Agile Game Development".

> In

> > this class I will be focusing on SCRUM with projects while talking about

> > other development practices. I am able to pull from my experiences with

> > SCRUM, but to better serve the students, I thought I should ask the

> > community on their experiences.

> >

> > Thanks,

> > Nic Colley

> > Faculty, Simulation & Game Development

> > Nic.Colley at cpcc.edu

> > _______________________________________________

> > game_edu mailing list

> > game_edu at igda.org

> > http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_edu

> > _______________________________________________

> > game_edu mailing list

> > game_edu at igda.org

> > http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_edu

> >

>

>

>

> --

> Adam Parker

> Senior Lecturer, Games Design (Melbourne)

>

> Qantm College Pty Ltd (Brisbane, Sydney, Melbourne)

> 235 Normanby Road

> South Melbourne VIC 3205

>

> Tel. +61 (03) 8632 3450

> Fax. +61 (03) 8632 3401

> Email: aparker at qantmcollege.edu.au

> Web: http://melbourne.qantm.com

>

> CRICOS Numbers: 02689A (QLD), 02852F (NSW), 02837E (VIC)

> -------------- next part --------------

> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...

> URL: <

> http://seven.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_edu/attachments/20110110/e09b6179/attachment.htm

> >

>

> ------------------------------

>

> Message: 5

> Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 22:18:46 +0200 (EET)

> From: artur.lugmayr at tut.fi

> Subject: [game_edu] CfP: CT 2011 - SAME 2011 - Semantic Ambient Media

> Experience - Brisbane, Austrial - 29/06-02/07

> To: game_edu at igda.org

> Message-ID: <1601866242.121.1294690726802.JavaMail.abc at HLO1-PC>

> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

>

>

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Call for Position Papers

>

> SAME 2011 ? 4th International Workshop on Semantic Ambient Media Experience

> 29th June-2nd July 2011

> in conjunction with the

> 5th International Conference on Communities and Technologies, Brisbane,

> Australia

>

> http://www.ambientmediaassociation.org/node/60,

> http://ct2011.urbaninformatics.net/

>

> Creating the business value-creation, vision, media theories and technology

> for ambient media

>

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

> Call for Papers

>

> The medium is the message! And the message was transmitted via a single

> distinguishable media

> such as television, the Web, the radio, or books. In the age of ubiquitous

> and pervasive computation,

> where the information goes through a distributed interlinked network of

> devices, the question ?what

> is content in the age of ambient media?? becomes more and more of

> importance.

> Ambient media are embedded throughout the natural environment of the

> consumer ? in his home,

> in his car, in restaurants, and on his mobile device. Predominant example

> services are smart

> wallpapers in homes, location based services, RFID based entertainment

> services for children, or

> intelligent homes. The distribution of the medium throughout the natural

> environment implies a

> paradigm change of how to think about content.

> Until recently, content was identified as single entities to information ?

> a video stream, audio stream,

> TV broadcast. However, in the age of ambient media, the notion of content

> extends from the single

> entity thinking towards a plethora of sensor networks, smart devices,

> personalized services, media

> embedded in the natural environment of the user and even the World Wide

> Web. The user actively

> participates and co-designs media experience with his location and context

> based input. Initiatives as

> the smart Web considering location based tagging for web-pages underline

> this development.

> This multidisciplinary workshop aims at a series, and at the creation of a

> think-tank of creative

> thinkers coming from technology, art, human-computer interaction, and

> social sciences, that are

> interested in glimpsing the future of semantic ambient intelligent

> empowered media technology.

> Thus, the workshop aims to answer to the challenges how to select, compose,

> and generate ambient

> content; how to interpret content for the ambient presentation; how to

> re-use ambient content and

> learning experiences; what are the characteristics of ambient media, its

> content, and technology; and

> what are ambient media in terms of story-telling and art. And finally, how

> do ambient media create

> business and value? How can ambient media be integrated into business

> processes and strategies?

> In addition, Semantics plays a crucial role in the generation of ambient

> media content. It can be seen

> as the glue between the raw data and the ambient media. Therefore we are

> interested to see

> innovative ideas how data can be (semi-)automatically be interpreted and

> translated into media

> presentations.

>

> Workshop Challenges

>

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

> ? What is ?content? and how can it be presented in the age of ?ubiquitous?

> and ?pervasive??

> ? How to select, compose and generate ambient content?

> ? How to interpret content for an ambient presentation?

> ? How to manage and re-use ambient content in specific application

> scenarios (e.g. e-learning)?

> ? What is interactivity between the single consumers and consumer groups in

> the ambient context?

> ? How can collaborative or audience participatory content be supported?

> ? How can sensor data be interpreted and intelligently mined?

> ? How can existing media such as TV, home entertainment, cinema extended by

> ambient media?

> ? How can ambient media be applied in business processes?

> ? How do ambient media create value and business?

> ? Business opportunities and strategic issues of ambient media?

> ? Which methods for experience design, prototyping, and business models

> exist?

>

> More information on the previous International Workshops on Semantic

> Ambient Media Experience:

> * 1st International Workshop on Semantic Ambient Media Experiences

> held in conjunction with

> ACM Multimedia 2008,

>

> http://portal.acm.org/toc.cfm?id=1461912&type=proceeding&coll=ACM&dl=ACM&CFID=96

> 753168&CFTOKEN=49706448<http://portal.acm.org/toc.cfm?id=1461912&type=proceeding&coll=ACM&dl=ACM&CFID=96%0A753168&CFTOKEN=49706448>

> * 2nd International Workshop on Semantic Ambient Media Experiences

> held in conjunction

> with AmI-09, http://webhotel2.tut.fi/emmi/forum/node/55

> * 3rd International Workshop on Semantic Ambient Media Experiences

> held in conjunction with

> AmI-10, http://www.ambientmediaassociation.org/node/56

>

> Topics of Interest

>

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

> The following (and related) topics are within the scope of this workshop

> and shall act as examples:

> * Supply chain management with ubiquitous computation

> * eCommerce & ubiquitous commerce

> * Business processes, value-creation, and opportunities of ambient media

> * Understanding of the semantics of ambient content and methods for adding

> intelligence to daily

> objects

> * The World Wide Web in the context of ambient media

> * Mobile and stationary sensor data collection and interpretation

> algorithms and techniques

> * Context awareness and collection and context aware composition/selection

> of ambient content

> * Creation and maintenance of meta-information including metadata and data

> management

> * Ambient and mobile social networks, user generated content, and

> co-creation of content and

> products

> * Ambient Assisted Living (AAL)

> * Characteristics of ambient media, its content, and technological

> platforms

> * Ambient content creation techniques, asset management, and programming

> ambient media

> * Algorithms and techniques for sensor data interpretation and semantic

> interpretation

> * Applications and services, including ambient games, art and leisure

> content in specific contexts

> * Ambient interactive storytelling, narrations, and interactive advertising

> * Personalization, user models, multimodal interaction, smart user

> interfaces, and universal access

> * Experience design, usability, audience research, ethnography, user

> studies, and interface design

> * Business models, marketing studies, media economics, and ?x?-commerce of

> semantic ambient

> media

> * Ambient interfaces (touch, gesture, haptics, biometrics)

> * Management of information, knowledge and sapience in the context of

> semantic ambient media

> * Methods for context awareness, sensor networks, and sensor data mining

> * Semantic data mining and text mining for pervasive media

> * Semantic models, semantic interpretation for ambient media presentation;

> * Personalization and methods for locative media

> The workshop aims at a series, and at the creation of a think-tank of

> creative thinkers coming from

> technology, art, human-computer interaction, and social sciences, that are

> interested in glimpsing

> the future of semantic ambient intelligent empowered media technology. We

> are aiming at

> multidisciplinary, highly future oriented submissions that help to develop

> the "ambient media form"

> for entertainment services, such as:

> * case-studies (successful, and especially unsuccessful ones)

> * oral presentation of fresh and innovative ideas

> * artistic installations and running system prototypes

> * user-experience studies and evaluations

> * technological novelties, evaluations, and solutions

>

>

> Target Audience

>

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

> The target audience are researchers and practitioners in the field of

> ubiquitous and pervasive

> computation and its related areas. These include pervasive computation,

> emotional computation,

> content creation, ubiquitous computation, human-computer-interaction and

> usability experts,

> mobile industry, service creators, etc. Workshop participants shall have

> previous experience in this or

> related fields to be able to contribute on a high scientific level. The

> workshop participants will

> actively contribute to the development of semantic ambient media, due to a

> different method of

> workshop organization. Participants shall participate rather than passively

> contribute. The

> participants shall discuss and actively elaborate the topic and we plan to

> kick-off an international

> web-based informal forum for ambient media, which shall increase the effect

> of this workshop

> tremendously.

> We strongly welcome multidisciplinary contributions coming from the media

> technology, business,

> artistic, and human experience side. Case studies (successful and

> especially unsuccessful), artistic

> installations, technologies, media studies, and user-experience evaluations

> are highly welcome,

> which are affecting the development of ambient media as new form of media.

> Especially visionary

> contributions shaping the future of ambient media are strongly welcome.

>

> Paper Submission

>

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

> * Submissions are expected to be 2-4 pages position papers according

> the paper format of C&T

> available at http://www.sigchi.org/chipubform

> * Please submit your paper at our paper submission system:

> http://webhotel2.tut.fi/emmi/Conferences/2011same/openconf.php

> * Best contributions will be compiled to a special issue following up

> the workshop - we aim at

> Springer MTAP after reviewing the quality of contributions

> * Check also the Ambient Media Association (AMEA):

> www.ambientmediaassociation.org

>

> Important Dates

>

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

> * paper submission: 15th March 2011

> * notification of acceptance: 1st April 2011

> * final papers due: 15th April 2011

> * workshop day: 29th June 2011

> * special issue articles due: 30th August 2011

>

> Workshop Chairs

>

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

> * Artur Lugmayr, Tampere University of Technology (TUT) & lugYmedia

> Inc., FINLAND

> * Thomas Risse, L3S Research Center, GERMANY

> * Bjorn Stockleben, Univ. of Applied Sciences Magdeburg, GERMANY

> * Juha Kaario, Varaani Works Oy, FINLAND

> * Bogdan Pogorelc, Jozef Stefan Institute & Spica International d.o.o.,

> SLOVENIA

> * Estefania Serral Asensio, Universidad Polit?cnica de Valencia, SPAIN

>

> Program Committee

>

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

> * Heiko Schuldt, Uni Basel, SWITZERLAND

> * Pablo Caesar, Centrum voor Wiskunde en Informatica, THE NETHERLANDS

> * Zhiwen Yu, Northwestern Polytechnical University, CHINA

> * Richard Chbeir, Bourgogne University, FRANCE

> * Sofia Tsekeridou, Athens Information Technology, GREECE

> * Shu-Ching Chen, Florida International University, USA

> * Mark Billinghurst, Canterbury University, NEW ZEALAND

> * Carsten Magerkurth, SAP, GERMANY

> * Andreas Holzinger, Medical University Graz, AUSTRIA

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------

>

> _______________________________________________

> game_edu mailing list

> game_edu at igda.org

> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_edu

>

>

> End of game_edu Digest, Vol 77, Issue 2

> ***************************************

>

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://seven.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_edu/attachments/20110110/c57c7472/attachment-0001.html>


More information about the game_edu mailing list