[game_edu] game_edu Digest, Vol 129, Issue 8
DSeelow at excelsior.edu
DSeelow at excelsior.edu
Tue Jan 27 18:25:08 EST 2015
I agree with others that such a condition is unacceptable in any field.
David
Sent with Good (www.good.com)
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Subject : game_edu Digest, Vol 129, Issue 8
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
IGDA Education SIG
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Today's Topics:
1. Internship question (Ben Chang)
2. Re: Internship question (Ian Schreiber)
3. Re: Internship question (Zagal, Jose)
4. Re: Internship question (Charles Rich)
5. Re: Internship question (Ben Chang)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 16:05:22 -0500
From: Ben Chang <changb3 at rpi.edu>
To: game_edu at igda.org
Subject: [game_edu] Internship question
Message-ID: <54C7FD92.8070401 at rpi.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Hi all,
I have a student who's been offered an unpaid internship. The contract
has as non-compete that would bar him from doing game dev work in a
related field for one year after completion. Is this normal for unpaid
internship? It seems disadvantageous. The only value he receives from
performing the work is experience to use towards future employment, but
he would be prevented from seeking employment doing the thing he'd
gotten experience doing.
thanks,
--Ben Chang
--
Benjamin Chang
Associate Professor, Department of the Arts
Director, Games and Simulation Arts and Sciences
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute
110 8th Street, Troy, NY 12180
changb3 at rpi.edu
518.276.2366
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 21:34:36 +0000 (UTC)
From: Ian Schreiber <ai864 at yahoo.com>
To: IGDA Game Education Listserv <game_edu at igda.org>
Subject: Re: [game_edu] Internship question
Message-ID:
<1779623358.1426166.1422394476712.JavaMail.yahoo at mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Unpaid internships, regardless of anything else, are illegal in many states
and are sketchy to begin with. Minimum wage is cheap, and a handful of paid
interns isn't going to be the thing that makes or breaks a company's bottom
line. They also have the down side of perpetuating a social class gap:
students from disadvantaged backgrounds are less able to take an unpaid
internship to begin with. I would tend to steer students away from unpaid
internships in general (at least the good students; let the terrible
students work for the company for free, as punishment to both the student
and the company ;-). As for "you'll get great experience" - you know what
else gives great experience without pay? Working on your own game. Have the
interested students do that instead. As for "we might hire you if you do
great work as an unpaid intern," if they underpay interns, I'd assume they
don't treat you any better as a permanent employee, so that's not exactly a
selling point either.
Non-competes are another red flag, ESPECIALLY at the intern level. To the
extent that non-competes are okay, it's mainly to prevent someone like a
team lead or director level employee from leaving the company and pulling
half the dev team with them to start their own studio. (One could argue
that a better defense against this situation is to treat your employees
well enough that they wouldn't want to leave, rather than just sticking a
legal poison bomb in their work contract, but whatever.) Telling a student
that they can't work in the industry, though? I can't see any rational
justification for this. Also, worth noting that non-competes are
unenforceable in many jurisdictions.
Both of those things together? Not normal, definitely unethical, possibly
illegal. I would stay far, far away. Definitely NOT the kind of place I
would want my students to go.
If a student had other reasons that outweighed the negatives that made them
really interested in this particular internship for some reason, I would
have them research the labor laws in the state that the company lives in to
see what their rights are.
- Ian
From: Ben Chang <changb3 at rpi.edu>
To: game_edu at igda.org
Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2015 4:05 PM
Subject: [game_edu] Internship question
Hi all,
I have a student who's been offered an unpaid internship.? The contract
has as non-compete that would bar him from doing game dev work in a
related field for one year after completion.? Is this normal for unpaid
internship?? It seems disadvantageous.? The only value he receives from
performing the work is experience to use towards future employment, but
he would be prevented from seeking employment doing the thing he'd
gotten experience doing.
thanks,
--Ben Chang
--
Benjamin Chang
Associate Professor, Department of the Arts
Director, Games and Simulation Arts and Sciences
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute
110 8th Street, Troy, NY 12180
changb3 at rpi.edu
518.276.2366
_______________________________________________
game_edu mailing list
game_edu at igda.org
https://pairlist7.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/game_edu
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Message: 3
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 21:42:14 +0000
From: "Zagal, Jose" <jzagal at cdm.depaul.edu>
To: IGDA Game Education Listserv <game_edu at igda.org>
Subject: Re: [game_edu] Internship question
Message-ID:
<579C9D46DBCC4A45891AC84782143DA222EF8BD6 at EX2K10MBX.cti.depaul.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Not normal in my experience.
I know of lots of contracts that will claim ownership over work done
while employed - and some of these can be negotiated by students (e.g.
so they can work on their school projects). However, a year long
non-compete from an unpaid internship? That's outrageous and I wouldn't
encourage the student to take the internship.
Jose
On 1/27/2015 2:05 PM, Ben Chang wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I have a student who's been offered an unpaid internship. The contract
> has as non-compete that would bar him from doing game dev work in a
> related field for one year after completion. Is this normal for unpaid
> internship? It seems disadvantageous. The only value he receives from
> performing the work is experience to use towards future employment, but
> he would be prevented from seeking employment doing the thing he'd
> gotten experience doing.
>
> thanks,
>
> --Ben Chang
>
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 16:11:22 -0500
From: Charles Rich <rich at WPI.EDU>
To: IGDA Game Education Listserv <game_edu at igda.org>
Subject: Re: [game_edu] Internship question
Message-ID:
<CAPQPOL1NXsbskqeaX++Fm6aHTGis-j6SscBOX-ncCmXs8CYQFA at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Technically, unpaid internships are illegal unless they are entirely
for training and educational purposes. In other words, if the
student does anything that contributes to the business of the company,
they must be paid. A lot of companies are still walking in the gray
area on this one. However, adding a non-competition clause like this
is beyond the pale. I would recommend reporting the company
(confidentially, of course) to the attorney general's office in your
state.
-CR
On Tue, Jan 27, 2015 at 4:05 PM, Ben Chang <changb3 at rpi.edu> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I have a student who's been offered an unpaid internship. The contract
has
> as non-compete that would bar him from doing game dev work in a related
> field for one year after completion. Is this normal for unpaid
internship?
> It seems disadvantageous. The only value he receives from performing
the
> work is experience to use towards future employment, but he would be
> prevented from seeking employment doing the thing he'd gotten experience
> doing.
>
> thanks,
>
> --Ben Chang
>
> --
> Benjamin Chang
> Associate Professor, Department of the Arts
> Director, Games and Simulation Arts and Sciences
> Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute
> 110 8th Street, Troy, NY 12180
> changb3 at rpi.edu
> 518.276.2366
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_edu mailing list
> game_edu at igda.org
> https://pairlist7.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/game_edu
--
Dr. Charles Rich, Professor, Computer Science Department
Interactive Media and Game Development Program
Robotics Engineering Program
Worcester Polytechnic Institute, Fuller Laboratories B25b
100 Institute Road, Worcester, MA 01609-2280
Email: rich at wpi.edu Phone: 508-831-5945 Fax: 508-831-5776
Home: http://www.cs.wpi.edu/~rich
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 17:03:14 -0500
From: Ben Chang <changb3 at rpi.edu>
To: game_edu at igda.org
Subject: Re: [game_edu] Internship question
Message-ID: <54C80B22.1050001 at rpi.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; Format="flowed"
Thanks! That was my thought as well, but I wanted to make sure I wasn't
giving poor advice.
TBF the non-compete wasn't for all game development work; it applied to
games with a similar topic and target audience, though to my mind that
doesn't make it any better. The company is a new startup that looks
like it's also primarily people just out of school. All of which tells
me this is something I need to start covering in class.
--Ben
On 1/27/15 4:34 PM, Ian Schreiber via game_edu wrote:
> Unpaid internships, regardless of anything else, are illegal in many
> states and are sketchy to begin with. Minimum wage is cheap, and a
> handful of paid interns isn't going to be the thing that makes or
> breaks a company's bottom line. They also have the down side of
> perpetuating a social class gap: students from disadvantaged
> backgrounds are less able to take an unpaid internship to begin with.
> I would tend to steer students away from unpaid internships in general
> (at least the good students; let the terrible students work for the
> company for free, as punishment to both the student and the company
> ;-). As for "you'll get great experience" - you know what else gives
> great experience without pay? Working on your own game. Have the
> interested students do that instead. As for "we might hire you if you
> do great work as an unpaid intern," if they underpay interns, I'd
> assume they don't treat you any better as a permanent employee, so
> that's not exactly a selling point either.
>
> Non-competes are another red flag, ESPECIALLY at the intern level. To
> the extent that non-competes are okay, it's mainly to prevent someone
> like a team lead or director level employee from leaving the company
> and pulling half the dev team with them to start their own studio.
> (One could argue that a better defense against this situation is to
> treat your employees well enough that they wouldn't want to leave,
> rather than just sticking a legal poison bomb in their work contract,
> but whatever.) Telling a student that they can't work in the industry,
> though? I can't see any rational justification for this. Also, worth
> noting that non-competes are unenforceable in many jurisdictions.
>
> Both of those things together? Not normal, definitely unethical,
> possibly illegal. I would stay far, far away. Definitely NOT the kind
> of place I would want my students to go.
>
> If a student had other reasons that outweighed the negatives that made
> them really interested in this particular internship for some reason,
> I would have them research the labor laws in the state that the
> company lives in to see what their rights are.
>
> - Ian
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Ben Chang <changb3 at rpi.edu>
> *To:* game_edu at igda.org
> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 27, 2015 4:05 PM
> *Subject:* [game_edu] Internship question
>
> Hi all,
>
> I have a student who's been offered an unpaid internship. The contract
> has as non-compete that would bar him from doing game dev work in a
> related field for one year after completion. Is this normal for unpaid
> internship? It seems disadvantageous. The only value he receives from
> performing the work is experience to use towards future employment, but
> he would be prevented from seeking employment doing the thing he'd
> gotten experience doing.
>
> thanks,
>
> --Ben Chang
>
> --
> Benjamin Chang
> Associate Professor, Department of the Arts
> Director, Games and Simulation Arts and Sciences
> Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute
> 110 8th Street, Troy, NY 12180
> changb3 at rpi.edu <mailto:changb3 at rpi.edu>
> 518.276.2366
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_edu mailing list
> game_edu at igda.org <mailto:game_edu at igda.org>
> https://pairlist7.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/game_edu
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_edu mailing list
> game_edu at igda.org
> https://pairlist7.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/game_edu
--
Benjamin Chang
Associate Professor, Department of the Arts
Director, Games and Simulation Arts and Sciences
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute
110 8th Street, Troy, NY 12180
changb3 at rpi.edu
518.276.2366
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