[games_access] FORUM (was Re: GDC 2008: VERY Bad News)

Sat Dec 1 14:16:21 EST 2007

Well, it seems that the IGDA web initiative is pretty dead at the 
moment so there's no reason why we can't adopt the site. Can you help 
us/me get in touch with the foundation again so that we can work this 
out and get our web presence seriously back on track?

Remember -- you've also had to take some time off from working with 
the SIG (I know...I have a PhD to finish too but I'm not in as nice a 
situation) so please remember that when you criticize about action 
not being taken on this and that. Cool?

Michelle

>Hi,
>
>Just so you know: the GA forum was left unattended for some time but 
>the spam was removed as far as I could see. The forum is still 
>pretty popular, it's just that not that many SIG people attend it 
>(because it is not an "offical SIG" forum?).
>
>As I also said in the past: the Accessibility foundation is still 
>awaiting to be approached by the GA-SIG for collaborating on GA.com. 
>I already explained to a couple of you that with me and Sander 
>having left the foundation, most expertise left too. The foundation 
>is currently focusing on other projects and does not have the 
>resources to maintain this website at the moment. I already 
>discussed a possible collaboration with GA-SIG with my boss - EVEN 
>to the extend of GA-SIG ADOPTING GA.com and chaing it to a GA-SIG 
>format - as if it was its own - with Accessibility only sponsoring 
>the website in the form of hosting it. As far as I know, the 
>foundation is still up for that. However, IGDA politics intervened 
>which resulted in that IGDA GA-SIG still does not have a website to 
>call their own. If GA-SIG does not want to collaborate with GA.com 
>then I would still suggest to buy www.gasig.org and simply make a 
>website under that for as long as IGDA politics keep intervening.
>
>Greets,
>
>Richard
>
>
>
>
>----- Original Message ----- From: "John Bannick" <jbannick at 7128.com>
>To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
>Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 7:20 PM
>Subject: Re: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
>
>>Barrie,
>>
>>No. Not harsh. Just on point. (Programmers are not hired for their 
>>social skills.)
>>
>>1. Yes.
>>
>>But this SIG is unique in that it is the one active place that 
>>covers multiple challenges, has an international audience, and 
>>clearly has the ears of some key industry players. If this SIG has 
>>its own concise, specific, answer to "what do you want us 
>>developers to do?" please point me to it.
>>
>>2. Again, this SIG has a unique position in that it can credibly 
>>publish such a list, that address multiple challenges, 
>>internationally, and has the ear of the major developers. Is there 
>>any such recognized list of companies and games? Why not from this 
>>SIG?
>>
>>3. Please.
>>
>>I'm on the Game Accessibility Project forum every day. It's getting 
>>spammed without intervention. It's much lower volume than such a 
>>fine effort warrants.  Richard says he's out of there. It's adrift.
>>
>>And Mark's forum is outstanding, but does not right now have the 
>>attention of the industry leaders, or actual developers, that this 
>>SIG does. (No criticism, he's doing a wonderful job.) I'm on 
>>Audyssey every day and it has a very active set of game developers 
>>that help each other all the time. But it's limited to the blind 
>>and VI folks.
>>
>>I'd not heard of the RetroRemakes forum (thanks for the tip) but 
>>according to its main page, it's most recent post was in August.
>>
>>Show me a forum where mainstream game developers meet to help each 
>>other make accessibility happen.
>>
>>The three proposals stand.
>>
>>John
>>
>>At 11:47 AM 12/1/2007, you wrote:
>>>A little harsh, John perhaps?
>>>
>>>1. Has been covered to various degrees here:
>>>
>>>http://www.oneswitch.org.uk/2/ARTICLES/physical-barriers.htm
>>>http://www.ics.forth.gr/hci/ua-games/game-over/
>>>http://www.helpyouplay.com/welcome.html
>>>
>>>(and other places too).
>>>
>>>2. Is is a good point. But there's so few mainstream developers 
>>>making deliberate accessibity efforts that take into account 
>>>specific disabilities. Here's a list of some:
>>>
>>>http://www.oneswitch.org.uk/2/pioneers.htm
>>>http://gameaccessibility.blogspot.com/
>>>
>>>3. Forums here:
>>>
>>>http://www.game-accessibility.com/forum/
>>>http://www.retroremakes.com/forum2/forumdisplay.php?f=84
>>>http://ablegamers.com/component/option,com_fireboard/Itemid,606/
>>>
>>>We need the support of more people though!
>>>
>>>Barrie
>>>www.OneSwitch.org.uk
>>>www.igda.org/accessibility
>>>
>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "John Bannick" <jbannick at 7128.com>
>>>To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
>>>Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 4:05 PM
>>>Subject: Re: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
>>>
>>>>Reid is right.
>>>>
>>>>There are developers right now who want their work to be accessible.
>>>>
>>>>This SIG could right now facilitate that by:
>>>>
>>>>1. Providing, distributing, and publicizing a concise, specific 
>>>>set of functional criteria that define what means accessible.
>>>>2. Compiling, publishing, and publicizing an annual list of which 
>>>>companies and games meet those criteria.
>>>>3. Maintaining a forum (The currently rather drifting Game 
>>>>Accessibility Project comes to mind) where developers can go for 
>>>>immediate help.
>>>>
>>>>I'm a developer of games that are accessible.
>>>>Have shipped 22 different revenue-generating products in a wide 
>>>>variety of vertical markets in the last 30 years.
>>>>Am neither stupid nor lazy.
>>>>And don't see any of the 3 above items.
>>>>
>>>>None of the 3 items should take long to build as a first cut.
>>>>
>>>>And if not from this SIG, then from where?
>>>>
>>>>John Bannick
>>>>CTO
>>>>7-128 Software
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>At 02:26 AM 12/1/2007, you wrote:
>>>>>Please, can we stop with the negative talk about GDC and the game
>>>>>industry? I work in the game industry for LucasArts. Just last week I
>>>>>talked to a highly respected programmer and he's 100% behind us and
>>>>>wants to talk about what we can do to improve accessibility in our
>>>>>games after our current milestone is finished. There are dozens of
>>>>>people at LucasArts that support game accessibility. Nintendo totally
>>>>>gets it, EA Games totally gets it with their Family Play modes in
>>>>>their sports games. Peter Molyneux gets it, Will Wright... the list
>>>>>goes on and on.
>>>>>
>>>>>It's offensive to me when people of this SIG accuse developers of not
>>>>>caring because WE DO CARE. The last thing you want to do is insult the
>>>>>people you have to work with. It's the quickest way to turn them away
>>>>>from our cause.
>>>>>
>>>>>So, instead of complaining, lets do something about it! First,
>>>>>everyone here needs to understand what it's like for developers and
>>>>>why it's so hard for them to adopt accessibility features.
>>>>>
>>>>>1. Limited financial resources - Games are very expensive to make and
>>>>>any new features adds to the cost. Before you can add accessibility
>>>>>features you must have a game and that's where most of the money is
>>>>>spent first.
>>>>>
>>>>>2. Limited time - Game development is incredibly complex and hard to
>>>>>tame. No matter how much extra time gets budgeted into the production
>>>>>schedule, it always runs out well before all tasks are complete. When
>>>>>this happens, features get cut in order to save the core of the game
>>>>>and again, without a game, there can't be any accessibility features.
>>>>>Because this usually happens so late, there isn't enough time to work
>>>>>on accessibility features before the game has to ship.
>>>>>
>>>>>3. Limited information - Even if a developer was pro-active and
>>>>>scheduled the development of accessibility features into the games'
>>>>>development schedule, there's still a major lack of knowledge and
>>>>>tools that enable them to do their job. The SIG has been thinking
>>>>>about accessibility features for years and we have all the solutions,
>>>>>but developers don't yet. We need to make ourselves known and readily
>>>>>available to help them.
>>>>>
>>>>>What can we do to solve these issues? We need to develop our
>>>>>relationships with developers and offer our assistance. Our attempts
>>>>>to work with GarageGames is a good start. When a new game is announced
>>>>>we should contact them and offer our expertise.
>>>>>
>>>>>We have GOT to get a website up so that we can communicate our
>>>>>abilities and expertise to our target audiences (game developers).
>>>>>
>>>>>But there are technical issues and many of us are volunteers and so
>>>>>things move very slowly.
>>>>>
>>>>>Several of us are writing guidelines for implementing certain features
>>>>>but again, this is a slow process. Others are doing research. Going to
>>>>>conferences is awesome. Writing articles to Gamasutra is great as
>>>>>well.
>>>>>
>>>>>Eitan is right, we have to "sell" our expertise. It's not that
>>>>>developers don't care, they don't know that they SHOULD care.
>>>>>
>>>>>-Reid
>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>games_access mailing list
>>>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>
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>>>
>>>
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