[games_access] Terminology
Barrie Ellis
oneswitch at gmail.com
Sat Dec 11 05:14:35 EST 2010
Personally, I find that term bit wet, but each to their own. Also realise I'm in a minority not liking being described as white (I'm pink and occasionally brown - I'm definitely not white - and I've never seen a black person in my life - pretty sure we're 99.9% somewhere between very pale pink and very dark brown - not such polar opposites). In the context of game accessibility I prefer to talk of the barriers people face (Physical barriers, Cognitive barriers etc.) rather than people's limitations. We're looking for solutions to remove the barriers that disable people. Yes there's cross over between the medical model of disability and the social model - but I'm not a doctor. I much prefer the social model (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_model_of_disability). For me, I'm set on "Disabled People" in this field - until the barriers are removed. Then they're just people.
[steps down from well-worn soap-box]...
Barrie
From: Ryan Arndt
Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 5:19 PM
To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [games_access] Terminology
curious how people view the term "differently abled" as when I did my degree (BEd), this was the term of choice. What do you think?
Ryan Arndt
IGDA Global Community Manager
On 2010-12-04, at 7:59 PM, Michelle Hinn wrote:
I guess because of my age, I went through the 1970 "handicapped/handicappible" argument where some with disabilities felt that handicappable was a preferable term. So whenever I hear handicapped, I think back to those years (it was something on 70s children/teen TV, etc). After that seemed to be the search for a new term -- whether that was something that was pushed by the disabled community or those without disabilities? I do not know. I've just met many, unlike yourself, who have an issue with the term. So perhaps it's an age thing?
Perhaps my own reference to being a "person with a disability" (rather than "disabled person" comes from both my academic background as well as the fact that one of my disabilities is medical (and later made medically worse and causing physical limitations) when being treated for the "cure"). That's a very good possibility!
I agree, though, disability doesn't stop and in the end whatever term anyone wants to use about themselves, is ok.
I think, however, when it comes to cognitive disorders, cognitive or learning "handicaps" is problematic. Mainly because terms like "disorder," "disabilities," "limitation," etc seems to sound better than "handicap." And, yes, I have a learning disability. :)
Michelle
On Dec 4, 2010, at 9:24 PM, Steve Spohn wrote:
I’ve found very few who dislike handicapped (U.S. thing maybe) – even golf uses handicap as in “a disadvantage.” Mark prefers to say “gamer with disability” due to people complaining but used to say disabled gamer. I still say disabled gamer but that’s because I avoid medical/academic sounding phrases at all costs.
No fight from my end, I’m just stating “person first” is GREAT in a hospital. I hated when Drs referred to me as “kidney in bed 8” but in real life I think the disability is imposed on the person. Therefore, saying person with disability is attaching it to who I am. Barrie hates handicap as do most UK’ers, so we try to avoid it. However, you, Mark, Aaron, and I are handicapped (and in the U.S.) so the word doesn’t have negative connotations. So, all I can add is:
1. Being disabled never stops
a. There is no break but you can conquer barriers
2. Don’t say cripple or gimp
a. Notice broadened horizons is “GimpGear.us” but promotes BH
3. Handicapped is iffy
a. Never met someone in the U.S. who is disabled who minds handicap
b. U.K. people dislike it
4. Those who are disabled are more hardened against words
5. Person first is personal preference but it is more often used by academics and medical people
Steve Spohn
Associate Editor
The AbleGamers Foundation
www.ablegamers.com
www.ablegamers.org
Find me on Skype! Username: Steve_Spohn
From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Michelle Hinn
Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2010 9:55 PM
To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [games_access] Terminology
Mark, though, refers to himself as a someone with a disability -- perhaps he means to say that something about gaming makes him "disabled" but outside of that activity he is not disabled?
Not trying to start a list fight -- just trying to understand where disability starts and stops for you personally. Do you feel that "handicapped" is interchangeable with disability as well? The discussion had started with "handicapped" as a potentially offensive term so I was just looking for your opinion as to whether you found to it worthwhile to differentiate the two or if you found the two terms to be interchangeable.
Not sure I agree that by saying "person with a disability" is akin to saying that disability is an accessory -- it's just a preference as to how the individual wants to be referred to by others as.
Michelle
On Dec 4, 2010, at 6:52 PM, Steve Spohn wrote:
It’s like anything, someone will always be upset. It would, however, be doable to create an agreed-upon what NOT to say list.
As an aside, there is a trend in the disabled community which is similar to most communities; those who ARE handicapped/disabled are much much less sensitive to the term used than those who are not. The “inclusive” mindset is very prevalent in every country now-a-days, i.e. “I can say I’m ABC but you can’t because I actually am an X” – where X is a race/gender/disability/nationality .
Even if you read back through this list’s “in-fights” those who aren’t disabled get much more defensive than those who are.
Personal preferences aside, I think as long as you don’t use words you KNOW will hurt someone, you’re PC enough. AG gets scolded from time to time over the “person first” aspect. Mark, our CEO, is trying to say gamer with disabilities, while I continue to say disabled gamer. Why? Because I’m disabled. I’m not “defining” myself, I’m being factual. I will always be disabled, ergo, I’m a disabled <insert verb>. So, for once, I am very much on Barrie’s side: life made me disabled, it’s not an accessory like a hat. Take away what stops me from a given activity and I’m not disabled – well other than that whole wheelchair & ventilator thing.
Steve Spohn
Associate Editor
The AbleGamers Foundation
www.ablegamers.com
www.ablegamers.org
Find me on Skype! Username: Steve_Spohn
From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Michelle Hinn
Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2010 7:05 PM
To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [games_access] Terminology
A K-12 student is a student who is pre-university and/or still in government required schooling.
The "K" is for Kindergarten, from the German word "Children's Garden." :) It's an early childhood education term for a "pre-school" like setting. The term is used mostly in North America.
As far as a black/white list goes, I'm not sure it's possible to come up with a list that is, well, black/white. I think we could come closer to creating a list of terms that are regionally considered offensive than we could come up with a regional list that is "ok." However, as we've seen from the discussion, it is often up to the individual as to what they themselves use to describe themselves (ie, "handicapped" versus "disabled") and how they choose to describe themselves (ie, as "disabled" or as a "person with a disability").
There are no easy solutions. The same can be said for other issues such as terms, particularly slang terms, for race, sexuality, gender, etc.
Michelle
On Dec 4, 2010, at 5:31 PM, Sandra Uhling wrote:
Hi,
so when we would make a black and white list, we should make separate ones for different regions?
What is a K-12 student?
Best regards,
Sandra
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Von: "Michelle Hinn" <hinn at uiuc.edu>
Gesendet: 05.12.2010 00:11:46
An: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
Betreff: Re: [games_access] Terminology
True, Lynsey -- Handicapped as "Cap in Hand" is more of a UK concern (correct, Barrie?) than it is a US concern.
I'm not sure I understand how Hasbro got away with a Transformer game called "spastic" even in the US -- that's a term used as an insult by many a K-12 student (and above sometimes!). Perhaps it's losing it's luster as an insult!?!
Michelle
On Dec 4, 2010, at 8:02 AM, Lynsey Graham wrote:
I think one of the things that makes it more awkward is that the way words are percieved varies so much from region to region, even in the same language - never mind when you start translating to many languages. For example, while still unpleasant, 'spastic' and 'spazz' doesn't seem to be regarded as offensive in the US as it is in the UK - I've heard it used in a lot of US shows, including children's shows (hello Bratz). I know Nintendo managed to get two games pulled from the shelves in the UK that featured the word (including Mario Party 8), and Hasbro recently launched a Transformer called Spastic (which won't be released in the UK). Obviously that's a slightly more exteme example, but we really don't want to unintentionally offend anyone.
It's quite a challenge when you're working on a product that will be released across many regions!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Steve Spohn [mailto:steve at ablegamers.com]
To: 'BlazeEagle' [mailto:blazeeagle at suddenlink.net], 'IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List' [mailto:games_access at igda.org]
Sent: Sat, 04 Dec 2010 00:43:09 +0000
Subject: Re: [games_access] Terminology
Exactly, Aaron. According to those who have scolded AG it should be "X
challenged" "persons with disabilities" and "persons with limitations" - I
say Disabled gamer a lot as it's what I am. Barrie is correct in the
"people first" is awkward and attaches negativity. Everyone has a
sensitivity to certain words but most of the disabled individuals I've met
despise "cripple" and some hate "gimp."
I've never had someone object to disabled and only a few on handicapped.
Steve Spohn
Associate Editor
The AbleGamers Foundation
www.ablegamers.com
www.ablegamers.org
Find me on Skype! Username: Steve_Spohn
-----Original Message-----
From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of BlazeEagle
Sent: Friday, December 03, 2010 4:55 PM
To: games_access at igda.org
Subject: Re: [games_access] Terminology
I personally don't find it that offensive but each person has their own
preference. For physical disability, is "physically challenged" more "P.C."?
For visual disabilities, How about "visually challenged" for visual
disabilities?
It really just boils down to semantics & how sensitive one is.
Aaron
--------------------------------------------------
From: <games_access-request at igda.org>
Sent: Friday, December 03, 2010 12:11 PM
To: <games_access at igda.org>
Subject: games_access Digest, Vol 81, Issue 4
> Send games_access mailing list submissions to
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Terminology (Lynsey Graham)
> 2. Re: Terminology (Sandra Uhling)
> 3. Re: Terminology (Lynsey Graham)
> 4. Re: Terminology (Barrie Ellis)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 16:25:14 -0000
> From: "Lynsey Graham" <lgraham at blitzgamesstudios.com>
> Subject: [games_access] Terminology
> To: "'IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List'"
> <games_access at igda.org>
> Message-ID:
> <7388601b-854b-41ec-8428-9794278692e2 at blitzgamesstudios.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Hello all,
>
> I was wondering if I could ask for advice. I've just moved onto a
> project, and noticed that one of the lines of dialogue refers to
> 'handicapped people'. From what I've gathered, quite a few people find
> this term offensive - is this generally the case? We're trying to decide
> whether to cut the line, or whether to keep it (as some people on the team
> have never heard that it's offensive).
>
> Any feedback would be much appreciated!
>
> Cheers,
>
> Lynsey
>
> Lynsey Graham
> Designer | Blitz Games
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> IMPORTANT INFORMATION
>
> Information and any attached documentation from Blitz Games Studios
> Limited (including its divisions: Blitz Games, Volatile Games, Blitz
> Arcade, TruSim & BlitzTech) is intended for the use of the addressee only
> and may contain confidential information.
>
> If you are not the intended recipient please delete this email and notify
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> Please note that without the prior written consent of Blitz Games Studios
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 17:44:14 +0100
> From: "Sandra Uhling" <sandra_uhling at web.de>
> Subject: Re: [games_access] Terminology
> To: "'IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List'"
> <games_access at igda.org>
> Message-ID: <004601cb9309$52353ac0$f69fb040$@de>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Hi Lynsey,
>
> I think this video will help you.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVqz0LKphws&feature=player_embedded
>
> Maybe you can describe the situation and what kind of disability the
> referred people have?
>
> A good description in general is: Persons with Disabilities, short PwDs.
>
> Best regards,
> Sandra
>
>
> -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
> Im
> Auftrag von Lynsey Graham
> Gesendet: Freitag, 3. Dezember 2010 17:25
> An: 'IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List'
> Betreff: [games_access] Terminology
>
> Hello all,
>
>
> I was wondering if I could ask for advice. I?ve just moved onto a
> project,
> and noticed that one of the lines of dialogue refers to ?handicapped
> people?. From what I?ve gathered, quite a few people find this term
> offensive ? is this generally the case? We?re trying to decide whether to
> cut the line, or whether to keep it (as some people on the team have never
> heard that it?s offensive).
>
>
>
> Any feedback would be much appreciated!
>
>
> Cheers,
>
>
> Lynsey
>
>
>
> Lynsey Graham
>
> Designer | Blitz Games
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> --
>
> IMPORTANT INFORMATION
>
> Information and any attached documentation from Blitz Games Studios
> Limited
> (including its divisions: Blitz Games, Volatile Games, Blitz Arcade,
> TruSim
> & BlitzTech) is intended for the use of the addressee only and may contain
> confidential information.
>
> If you are not the intended recipient please delete this email and notify
> us
> immediately.
>
> Please note that without the prior written consent of Blitz Games Studios
> Limited any form of distribution, copying or use of this email or the
> information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful.
>
> Attachments to this email may accidentally contain software viruses. You
> are
> advised to take all reasonable precautions to minimise this risk and to
> carry out a virus check on any attachments before they are opened.
>
> Any formal offer contained in this email is subject to the standard terms
> &
> conditions of Blitz Games Studios Limited and must be signed by both
> parties. Any views or opinions expressed are solely those of the author
> and
> do not necessarily represent those of Blitz Games Studios Limited.
>
> Blitz Games Studios Limited is registered in England (company no:
> 2482913).
> Its registered address is Regent Square House, The Parade, Leamington Spa,
> Warwickshire, CV32 4NL, UK
>
> ***********
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 17:06:52 -0000
> From: "Lynsey Graham" <lgraham at blitzgamesstudios.com>
> Subject: Re: [games_access] Terminology
> To: "'IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List'"
> <games_access at igda.org>
> Message-ID:
> <d7d7ff9c-c17f-47ed-acf2-f025896c73a1 at blitzgamesstudios.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> The line in question is:
>
> "Dogs are kept as pets but many also work for a living. They help out in
> all sorts of ways from pulling sleds, herding, helping the handicapped,
> guarding and hunting"
>
> It just strikes me as possibly being a bit awkwardly worded with the
> potential to offend. Strangely, the German translation seems to just
> refer to "f?hren Blinde", which I'm assuming is just referring to
> blindness?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
> On Behalf Of Sandra Uhling
> Sent: 03 December 2010 16:44
> To: 'IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List'
> Subject: Re: [games_access] Terminology
>
> Hi Lynsey,
>
> I think this video will help you.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVqz0LKphws&feature=player_embedded
>
> Maybe you can describe the situation and what kind of disability the
> referred people have?
>
> A good description in general is: Persons with Disabilities, short PwDs.
>
> Best regards,
> Sandra
>
>
> -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
> Im
> Auftrag von Lynsey Graham
> Gesendet: Freitag, 3. Dezember 2010 17:25
> An: 'IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List'
> Betreff: [games_access] Terminology
>
> Hello all,
>
>
> I was wondering if I could ask for advice. I've just moved onto a
> project,
> and noticed that one of the lines of dialogue refers to 'handicapped
> people'. From what I've gathered, quite a few people find this term
> offensive - is this generally the case? We're trying to decide whether to
> cut the line, or whether to keep it (as some people on the team have never
> heard that it's offensive).
>
>
>
> Any feedback would be much appreciated!
>
>
> Cheers,
>
>
> Lynsey
>
>
>
> Lynsey Graham
>
> Designer | Blitz Games
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> --
>
> IMPORTANT INFORMATION
>
> Information and any attached documentation from Blitz Games Studios
> Limited
> (including its divisions: Blitz Games, Volatile Games, Blitz Arcade,
> TruSim
> & BlitzTech) is intended for the use of the addressee only and may contain
> confidential information.
>
> If you are not the intended recipient please delete this email and notify
> us
> immediately.
>
> Please note that without the prior written consent of Blitz Games Studios
> Limited any form of distribution, copying or use of this email or the
> information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful.
>
> Attachments to this email may accidentally contain software viruses. You
> are
> advised to take all reasonable precautions to minimise this risk and to
> carry out a virus check on any attachments before they are opened.
>
> Any formal offer contained in this email is subject to the standard terms
> &
> conditions of Blitz Games Studios Limited and must be signed by both
> parties. Any views or opinions expressed are solely those of the author
> and
> do not necessarily represent those of Blitz Games Studios Limited.
>
> Blitz Games Studios Limited is registered in England (company no:
> 2482913).
> Its registered address is Regent Square House, The Parade, Leamington Spa,
> Warwickshire, CV32 4NL, UK
>
> ***********
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>
> --
>
> IMPORTANT INFORMATION
>
> Information and any attached documentation from Blitz Games Studios
> Limited (including its divisions: Blitz Games, Volatile Games, Blitz
> Arcade, TruSim & BlitzTech) is intended for the use of the addressee only
> and may contain confidential information.
>
> If you are not the intended recipient please delete this email and notify
> us immediately.
>
> Please note that without the prior written consent of Blitz Games Studios
> Limited any form of distribution, copying or use of this email or the
> information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful.
>
> Attachments to this email may accidentally contain software viruses. You
> are advised to take all reasonable precautions to minimise this risk and
> to carry out a virus check on any attachments before they are opened.
>
> Any formal offer contained in this email is subject to the standard terms
> & conditions of Blitz Games Studios Limited and must be signed by both
> parties. Any views or opinions expressed are solely those of the author
> and do not necessarily represent those of Blitz Games Studios Limited.
>
> Blitz Games Studios Limited is registered in England (company no:
> 2482913). Its registered address is Regent Square House, The Parade,
> Leamington Spa, Warwickshire, CV32 4NL, UK
>
> ***********
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 17:11:45 -0000
> From: "Barrie Ellis" <oneswitch at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [games_access] Terminology
> To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List"
> <games_access at igda.org>
> Message-ID: <C7AC2B07E36F4F659136228847280420 at OneSwitchPC>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=original
>
> I much prefer the term Disabled Person/People, in the context that a
> person
> is disabled by something in their environment that poses a barrier to
> them.
> If a person can't get into a shop because they need to use a wheelchair,
> then you might consider them a disabled person. If there's a ramp in
> place,
> that they can use, then they are no longer disabled in that particular
> context. The same with video games.
>
> Saying "Person with disability", attaches the disability to them, and
> always
> feels like a more medical way of describing someone to me. You'll hear
> people use the "people first" argument, but I prefer to describe people as
> people first. Then if there's something disabling them from doing what
> they
> need/want to do, I would describe the person as a disabled person.
>
> Barrie
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Sandra Uhling" <sandra_uhling at web.de>
> Sent: Friday, December 03, 2010 4:44 PM
> To: "'IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List'" <games_access at igda.org>
> Subject: Re: [games_access] Terminology
>
>> Hi Lynsey,
>>
>> I think this video will help you.
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVqz0LKphws&feature=player_embedded
>>
>> Maybe you can describe the situation and what kind of disability the
>> referred people have?
>>
>> A good description in general is: Persons with Disabilities, short PwDs.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Sandra
>>
>>
>> -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
>> Von: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
>> Im
>> Auftrag von Lynsey Graham
>> Gesendet: Freitag, 3. Dezember 2010 17:25
>> An: 'IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List'
>> Betreff: [games_access] Terminology
>>
>> Hello all,
>>
>>
>> I was wondering if I could ask for advice. I've just moved onto a
>> project,
>> and noticed that one of the lines of dialogue refers to 'handicapped
>> people'. From what I've gathered, quite a few people find this term
>> offensive - is this generally the case? We're trying to decide whether
>> to
>> cut the line, or whether to keep it (as some people on the team have
>> never
>> heard that it's offensive).
>>
>>
>>
>> Any feedback would be much appreciated!
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>>
>> Lynsey
>>
>>
>>
>> Lynsey Graham
>>
>> Designer | Blitz Games
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> --
>>
>> IMPORTANT INFORMATION
>>
>> Information and any attached documentation from Blitz Games Studios
>> Limited
>> (including its divisions: Blitz Games, Volatile Games, Blitz Arcade,
>> TruSim
>> & BlitzTech) is intended for the use of the addressee only and may
>> contain
>> confidential information.
>>
>> If you are not the intended recipient please delete this email and notify
>> us
>> immediately.
>>
>> Please note that without the prior written consent of Blitz Games Studios
>> Limited any form of distribution, copying or use of this email or the
>> information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful.
>>
>> Attachments to this email may accidentally contain software viruses. You
>> are
>> advised to take all reasonable precautions to minimise this risk and to
>> carry out a virus check on any attachments before they are opened.
>>
>> Any formal offer contained in this email is subject to the standard terms
>> &
>> conditions of Blitz Games Studios Limited and must be signed by both
>> parties. Any views or opinions expressed are solely those of the author
>> and
>> do not necessarily represent those of Blitz Games Studios Limited.
>>
>> Blitz Games Studios Limited is registered in England (company no:
>> 2482913).
>> Its registered address is Regent Square House, The Parade, Leamington
>> Spa,
>> Warwickshire, CV32 4NL, UK
>>
>> ***********
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> games_access mailing list
>> games_access at igda.org
>> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>
> End of games_access Digest, Vol 81, Issue 4
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Information and any attached documentation from Blitz Games Studios Limited (including its divisions: Blitz Games, Volatile Games, Blitz Arcade, TruSim & BlitzTech) is intended for the use of the addressee only and may contain confidential information.
If you are not the intended recipient please delete this email and notify us immediately.
Please note that without the prior written consent of Blitz Games Studios Limited any form of distribution, copying or use of this email or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful.
Attachments to this email may accidentally contain software viruses. You are advised to take all reasonable precautions to minimise this risk and to carry out a virus check on any attachments before they are opened.
Any formal offer contained in this email is subject to the standard terms & conditions of Blitz Games Studios Limited and must be signed by both parties. Any views or opinions expressed are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Blitz Games Studios Limited.
Blitz Games Studios Limited is registered in England (company no: 2482913). Its registered address is Regent Square House, The Parade, Leamington Spa, Warwickshire, CV32 4NL, UK
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WEB.DE DSL Doppel-Flat ab 19,99 €/mtl.! Jetzt auch mit
gratis Notebook-Flat! http://produkte.web.de/go/DSL_Doppel_Flatrate/2
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No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.872 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3295 - Release Date: 12/04/10 14:34:00
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No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.872 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3295 - Release Date: 12/04/10 14:34:00
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Ryan Arndt
Acting Community Manager
International Game Developers Association
Website: http://www.igda.org
Email: ryan at igda.org
LinkedIn: http://j.mp/IGDAli
Facebook: http://j.mp/IGDAfb
Twitter: @igda/@certainlysocial
http://facebook.com/ryan80e
Skype: ryanarndt
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