[games_access] suits about discriminationonthebasisofdisability?

Sun Jun 24 17:34:18 EDT 2012

Amen.

From: Steve Spohn 
Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2012 10:31 PM
To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List 
Cc: Scott Puckett 
Subject: Re: [games_access] suits about discriminationonthebasisofdisability?

No doubt I wish we could push a magic button and make it all work today, but some things take time.

On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 5:28 PM, Barrie Ellis <oneswitch at gmail.com> wrote:

  Oh, and didn't want to seem rude. Of course there are some great and important efforts going on. No doubt about it.

  From: Steve Spohn 
  Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2012 10:07 PM
  To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List 
  Cc: Scott Puckett 
  Subject: Re: [games_access] suits about discrimination onthebasisofdisability?

  I think AG, SE with individuals like John and Ian pushing we ARE making huge change.  Look at the accessibility landscape today versus years ago before any of us got into the fight. Heck, I don't think most developers even knew accessibility existed before we started this movement. Now they know, now developers are starting to care and now is the time where we will effect change without the need for legislation. 

  What we are doing is working.

  On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 4:28 PM, Barrie Ellis <oneswitch at gmail.com> wrote:

    Perhaps I'm just more impatient, but I believe there will be no huge change without some legislation. One angry and frustrated man, taking that law-suit did cause anger, annoyance and resistance. It also highlighted some important issues to my mind (access rights to public accommodations vs. access rights to virtual public accommodations). I think some useful stuff will come from that eventually. And agreed, lawsuits are irritating. I just wince looking at Apple and Samsung taking constant bites out of each other. Not nice.

    I'm actually far less dogmatic than I may come across, can see both sides pretty clearly, and have empathy for both. I don't always express it that well, I grant you.

    All the best,

    Barrie

    From: John R. Porter 
    Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2012 8:58 PM
    To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List 
    Subject: Re: [games_access] suits about discrimination on thebasisofdisability?

    Barrie,

    You're absolutely correct that the DDA (and the ADA on this side of the Atlantic) were hugely, and positively, influential developments in the push for accessibility. However, it's necessary to point out that your counter argument has to do with the efficacy of legislation, not judgments. There's obviously a certain amount of overlap, but they are not one and the same.

    Positive changes are brought about through legislation because they are carefully constructed umbrella statements that are universally applied to myriad different entities at the time of their passing. Some entities might at first be frustrated by their impositions, but no one feels singled out, and more importantly there isn't an air of aggressiveness or negativity to them (or at least not much).

    Lawsuits, on the other hand, are never received well except by those attempting to file them. Sometimes, they can be successful and result in very small amounts of positive change, but that change is incredibly begrudging and accompanied by a great deal of engendered ill will. The resulting attitude of people on the receiving end of a lawsuit tend to be "fine, we'll give you exactly what we are forced to, and absolutely nothing more."

    Lobbying and open dialogs, while they are of course much slower processes that might not have the flash and publicity of legal action, are generally practices that produce a more amiable relationship between involved parties and results that are most beneficial to everyone involved.

    Now, there are always exceptions (i.e. the cases of overlap). Legal judgments that set precedent can be incredibly effective as they produce the same type of blanket applicability as legislation. These are few and far between, though, and I wouldn't count on them being very common in this particular field of concern. Because digital entertainment is already such a grey area in the eyes of the law, any judge would be extremely hesitant to drop their gavel in such a way that threatened to cause a ripple effect throughout the entire game industry. 

    -John

    On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 12:14 PM, Barrie Ellis <oneswitch at gmail.com> wrote:

      My counter argument to that is pretty simple I think.

      In the UK, until the 1995 Disability Discrimination Act came into place, very few shops made any effort to provide "reasonably practicable access" to people such as wheelchair users. They complained that it would be far too expensive. All these years later, you'd be very hard pressed to find a shop that doesn't have wheelchair access. The legislation really has made a positive and lasting difference, and few people would worry about it now, or think it unfair.

      The reasonably practicable element is where good reason comes in (and yes with some grey areas). There's no pointing a gun to people's head. If it wasn't for anti-discrimination laws coming in, you'd probably still have racially segregated buses in the US, and such like around the world.

      Yes, developers worry, but if everyone has to take into account accessibility, it's far less of a worry. Altrusism and education only goes so far. I think we'll have to agree to differ though Steve, from previous discussions.

      Barrie

      From: Steve Spohn 
      Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2012 8:03 PM
      To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List 
      Subject: Re: [games_access] suits about discrimination on the basisofdisability?

      I would like to hear your counterargument. Being that I have to personally deal with developers every day in a number of things associated with AG, I can tell you that many of them had trepidation after that suit fearing that it may be the first of such lawsuits. Laws and lawsuits are not the way to bring about change.  

      Hell, some people used to say the tactics AbleGamers uses (pointing out videogame flaws in accessibility, doing reviews, and God for bid, talking to developers directly) were bullying tactics and repeatedly asked us to stop in favor of doing studies. Yet trying to force developers, particularly indies, to make adaptations to their product or face the consequence of the law, is acceptable?

      I think that is a bit of a double standard. 

      Walking down the road of virtually pointing a gun in the face of the developers saying "add a colorblind mode or else" is a very slippery slope.

      On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 2:47 PM, Barrie Ellis <oneswitch at gmail.com> wrote:

        Also would say that it doing more harm than good is up for dispute.

        From: Steve Spohn 
        Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2012 7:21 PM
        To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List 
        Subject: Re: [games_access] suits about discrimination on the basis ofdisability?

        It was thrown out. Also, many of AG SE & SIG condemned the law suit as it is not a good way to bring about change. Many devs clammed up for awhile after this law suit. It did more harm than anything. 

        On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 10:28 AM, Sandra Uhling <sandra_uhling at web.de> wrote:

          Hi,

          do we have a list with suits about discrimination on the basis of
          disability?

          I have only this:
          http://www.gamespot.com/news/visually-impaired-gamer-sues-sony-online-623933
          9

          Does someone have information about the result?
          Was ist because it was no "public service" or/and error in form?

          Best regards,
          Sandra

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        Steve Spohn 
        Editor-In-Chief
        The AbleGamers Foundation
        AbleGamers.com | AbleGamers.org | Facebook | Twitter 

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        The main SIG website page is http://igda-gasig.org

      -- 
      Steve Spohn 
      Editor-In-Chief
      The AbleGamers Foundation
      AbleGamers.com | AbleGamers.org | Facebook | Twitter 

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    _______________________________________________
    games_access mailing list
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    _______________________________________________
    games_access mailing list
    games_access at igda.org
    http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
    The main SIG website page is http://igda-gasig.org

  -- 
  Steve Spohn 
  Editor-In-Chief
  The AbleGamers Foundation
  AbleGamers.com | AbleGamers.org | Facebook | Twitter 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  _______________________________________________
  games_access mailing list
  games_access at igda.org
  http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
  The main SIG website page is http://igda-gasig.org

  _______________________________________________
  games_access mailing list
  games_access at igda.org
  http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
  The main SIG website page is http://igda-gasig.org

-- 
Steve Spohn 
Editor-In-Chief
The AbleGamers Foundation
AbleGamers.com | AbleGamers.org | Facebook | Twitter 

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