[game_edu] Game studies and the economy
David Bond
mokon at mokon.net
Thu Apr 2 12:26:27 EDT 2009
Just curious, from your experience how does a Computer Science degree from a
traditional program versus game related effect starting salary. Likewise how
do advanced degrees such as masters or PhDs in Computer Science effect this
from your experience.
-David
From: Ian Schreiber [mailto:ai864 at yahoo.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 12:19 PM
To: IGDA Game Education Listserv
Subject: Re: [game_edu] Game studies and the economy
I think that may be oversimplifying. 40K in California might be equivalent
to 20-25K anywhere else, so to really compare apples to apples you have to
give the location and salary (and also benefits, which are sometimes a
considerable part of the total compensation package).
In general, junior game designers are going to make less than other fields
because it's a high-demand/prestige position; audio will make less because
they get no love, as you say; and QA will make less, because they get even
less respect than audio (QA is also the most likely to be part-time hourly
with no benefits).
I'm also not sure if people with game-related degrees will start at higher
or lower salary than those with more general liberal arts degrees, when
hired into comparable positions. IGDA salary survey doesn't make the
distinction. I'd suspect there would be little difference in actual pay,
although there's probably a difference in hiring rate.
- Ian
--- On Thu, 4/2/09, Scott Maddock <smaddock at gmail.com> wrote:
From: Scott Maddock <smaddock at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [game_edu] Game studies and the economy
To: "IGDA Game Education Listserv" <game_edu at igda.org>
Date: Thursday, April 2, 2009, 12:05 PM
I would hesitantly guess that no one graduating with a game-related degree
is going to start under 40k (except maybe audio...sorry, guys, but you don't
get as much love as you should!). Does that sound roughly accurate to most
of you?
2009/4/2 Dan Rosenthal <swatjester at gmail.com
<http://us.mc397.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=swatjester@gmail.com> >
Oh, I'm sure the salary gaps are nowhere near that of the law industry
(300K+ per year difference between a senior associate and a junior at top
firms) but with the sheer number of students looking to make their way into
the industry, simple economic theory would indicate that the average
starting wage for them would likely be going down, or at least staying
static in relation to increases in COL and inflation.
I could be entirely wrong, it's just a theory. But it seems to fit.
-Dan
On Apr 2, 2009, at 10:24 AM, Scott Maddock wrote:
I think you may be on to something with this law industry comparison, though
I would think it's specifically being focused at the senior level developers
who, as Ian bluntly put it, just aren't superstars. If you have someone who
has "paid his/her dues" and is making notably more than an entry level dev
would, without producing significantly better work, then I can certainly see
a studio making that trade. But in general (and maybe I just haven't been
working long enough to find out what the "big bucks" is in this
industry...though I do read the results of the yearly salary survey!), a
senior level dev doesn't make SO much more than an entry level that it'd be
worth trading down in -experience-. Until you've actually -worked- in the
industry, even if it's just an internship or a co-op, you really haven't
gotten your feet wet.
Somehow, I don't think that studios are really worried about the stigma of
constantly firing senior employees to hire cheap new ones (and then repeat
the process) to keep costs down (which is sad; they should be, because it's
wrong, but I digress...).
On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 12:39 AM, Dan Rosenthal <swatjester at gmail.com
<http://us.mc397.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=swatjester@gmail.com> > wrote:
Has anyone considered whether the game industry is experiencing a phenomenon
similar to the law industry, where a combination of a tightening economy and
a glut of talented new graduates willing to work for extremely low pay to
compete for the limited number of jobs, has lead to belt-tightening measures
among senior staff? It's been my experience that as far as major law firms
go, many have been firing large numbers of highly-paid senior associates, to
replace them with cheaper but highly talented junior associates. Why pay
$300K a year when you can train a new guy into the job at $160K?
The reason I mention the comparison, which I'm sure has its flaws, is that I
was struck by the sheer number of students looking for work at GDC. With the
rising number of game design programs in universities worldwide, I wonder if
we're experiencing the same kind of glut of graduates that the law firms
are?
On the one hand, that means that some of the most talented students have a
chance to truly excel and stand out heads and shoulders above the rest. On
the other hand, it means that talented students may get lost in the shuffle
as well.
As far as law schools go, there have been an increasing chorus of voices
calling for schools to self-police and restrict the number of students that
they accept, but I'm sure we can all guess how much effect that has had
(protip: rhymes with zero). I haven't seen the same thing from the games
industry, nor am I suggesting that it should be implemented: I'd love to see
the day where we have 300+ game design programs graduating 500+ students
each per year. I'm just curious if anyone on this list has considered the
subject.
-Dan
On Apr 1, 2009, at 10:13 PM, Jose P. Zagal wrote:
I also have the impression that any bad news in the games industry is
automatically attributed to the economy. Truth is, game companies have
always trimmed people, closed studies, and so on. I'm not sure that things
are particularly worse than before. I'm not saying that they're rosy either,
just that it easy to get caught up in the negative hype.
For example, I would have said that GDC seemed pretty empty...but the
attendance numbers would clearly show me wrong. :-)
Jose
Ian Schreiber wrote:
This is a great question, and in fact one of the big things I was hoping to
get out of GDC this year was an answer to the question: why all the layoffs
when games (judging by revenue) are still a growth industry?
This is just my opinion (based on talking to a lot of people and trying to
"read between the lines" on the expo floor), but I think it comes down to
two things:
1) A lot of game developers are, frankly, not superstars. Game companies
with a lot of mediocre employees are trying to cut the deadwood.
2) Since everyone is doing this at the same time, it causes a cascade effect
that is really benefitting development shops. Want to lay people off, but
afraid of cutting the staff too much? No problem, there's lots of people
looking for work, so you can cut deep and then staff up fast if you need to
later on. Want to hire people? That's also no problem, lots of talent in the
job market right now.
Now, I did see some companies hiring very aggressively. I also saw a number
of geographic regions heavily incentivizing developers to move to their
region (seriously, probably a third of the booths in North Hall were a
location).
Corollaries:
* Students are going to have a rough time of it for now. The bar has
officially been raised. I think the industry will always have a place for
people who are genuinely skilled and talented, but the marginal students
should be thinking about another line of work that's less demanding.
* The regions that are trying to attract developers (such as those with
booths) are worth looking at for students who are willing to move out of the
country AND start their own independent studio while their burn rate is low.
I don't normally advise this to my students (starting a business when you
have no experience is a great way to lose everything you have) but in the
rare case when a student is ready to take this step, it seems to be a great
time for it.
* If your institution is looking to hire industry-experienced people for
teaching positions, this is a really great time to staff up your department.
A lot of people are getting sick and tired of the layoffs and would like
something that at least has the appearance of stability :)
* With so many schools churning out game-related degrees each year and the
industry growth not keeping pace, I can't see this changing in the near
future. But it does mean that as schools, the bar has been raised on us as
well; the schools with mediocre programs that produce mediocre graduates
will find their students unable to find work.
- Ian
--- On *Wed, 4/1/09, Brena Smith /<brena.smith at gmail.com
<http://us.mc397.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=brena.smith@gmail.com> >/*
wrote:
From: Brena Smith <brena.smith at gmail.com
<http://us.mc397.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=brena.smith@gmail.com> >
Subject: [game_edu] Game studies and the economy
To: "IGDA Game Education Listserv" <game_edu at igda.org
<http://us.mc397.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=game_edu@igda.org> >
Date: Wednesday, April 1, 2009, 12:54 PM
Hi all,
I have two questions: First, I know that all educational
institutions are not untouched by the economy these days - but have
any of you seen any specific impact on game studies departments?
Second, any thoughts on how the economy has impacted the electronic
game industry in general? Are game companies seeing a lot of
layoffs? Are students still able to find jobs?
Many thanks!
Brena
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