[game_edu] Game studies and the economy

[Stacey Simmons]

In my experience with publishers, traditional computer science and  
computer engineering degrees get paid better, especially with relevant  
skills to gaming, because those degrees are in higher demand.

Stacey


On Apr 2, 2009, at 11:26 AM, David Bond wrote:


> Just curious, from your experience how does a Computer Science  

> degree from a traditional program versus game related effect  

> starting salary. Likewise how do advanced degrees such as masters or  

> PhDs in Computer Science effect this from your experience.

> -David

>

> From: Ian Schreiber [mailto:ai864 at yahoo.com]

> Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 12:19 PM

> To: IGDA Game Education Listserv

> Subject: Re: [game_edu] Game studies and the economy

>

> I think that may be oversimplifying. 40K in California might be  

> equivalent to 20-25K anywhere else, so to really compare apples to  

> apples you have to give the location and salary (and also benefits,  

> which are sometimes a considerable part of the total compensation  

> package).

>

> In general, junior game designers are going to make less than other  

> fields because it's a high-demand/prestige position; audio will make  

> less because they get no love, as you say; and QA will make less,  

> because they get even less respect than audio (QA is also the most  

> likely to be part-time hourly with no benefits).

>

> I'm also not sure if people with game-related degrees will start at  

> higher or lower salary than those with more general liberal arts  

> degrees, when hired into comparable positions. IGDA salary survey  

> doesn't make the distinction. I'd suspect there would be little  

> difference in actual pay, although there's probably a difference in  

> hiring rate.

>

> - Ian

>

> --- On Thu, 4/2/09, Scott Maddock <smaddock at gmail.com> wrote:

>

> From: Scott Maddock <smaddock at gmail.com>

> Subject: Re: [game_edu] Game studies and the economy

> To: "IGDA Game Education Listserv" <game_edu at igda.org>

> Date: Thursday, April 2, 2009, 12:05 PM

> I would hesitantly guess that no one graduating with a game-related  

> degree is going to start under 40k (except maybe audio...sorry,  

> guys, but you don't get as much love as you should!).  Does that  

> sound roughly accurate to most of you?

> 2009/4/2 Dan Rosenthal <swatjester at gmail.com>

> Oh, I'm sure the salary gaps are nowhere near that of the law  

> industry (300K+ per year difference between a senior associate and a  

> junior at top firms) but with the sheer number of students looking  

> to make their way into the industry, simple economic theory would  

> indicate that the average starting wage for them would likely be  

> going down, or at least staying static in relation to increases in  

> COL and inflation.

>

> I could be entirely wrong, it's just a theory. But it seems to fit.

>

> -Dan

>

> On Apr 2, 2009, at 10:24 AM, Scott Maddock wrote:

>

>

> I think you may be on to something with this law industry  

> comparison, though I would think it's specifically being focused at  

> the senior level developers who, as Ian bluntly put it, just aren't  

> superstars.  If you have someone who has "paid his/her dues" and is  

> making notably more than an entry level dev would, without producing  

> significantly better work, then I can certainly see a studio making  

> that trade.  But in general (and maybe I just haven't been working  

> long enough to find out what the "big bucks" is in this  

> industry...though I do read the results of the yearly salary  

> survey!), a senior level dev doesn't make SO much more than an entry  

> level that it'd be worth trading down in -experience-.  Until you've  

> actually -worked- in the industry, even if it's just an internship  

> or a co-op, you really haven't gotten your feet wet.

>

> Somehow, I don't think that studios are really worried about the  

> stigma of constantly firing senior employees to hire cheap new ones  

> (and then repeat the process) to keep costs down (which is sad; they  

> should be, because it's wrong, but I digress...).

> On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 12:39 AM, Dan Rosenthal  

> <swatjester at gmail.com> wrote:

> Has anyone considered whether the game industry is experiencing a  

> phenomenon similar to the law industry, where a combination of a  

> tightening economy and a glut of talented new graduates willing to  

> work for extremely low pay to compete for the limited number of  

> jobs, has lead to belt-tightening measures among senior staff?  It's  

> been my experience that as far as major law firms go, many have been  

> firing large numbers of highly-paid senior associates, to replace  

> them with cheaper but highly talented junior associates. Why pay  

> $300K a year when you can train a new guy into the job at $160K?

>

> The reason I mention the comparison, which I'm sure has its flaws,  

> is that I was struck by the sheer number of students looking for  

> work at GDC. With the rising number of game design programs in  

> universities worldwide, I wonder if we're experiencing the same kind  

> of glut of graduates that the law firms are?

>

> On the one hand, that means that some of the most talented students  

> have a chance to truly excel and stand out heads and shoulders above  

> the rest. On the other hand, it means that talented students may get  

> lost in the shuffle as well.

>

> As far as law schools go, there have been an increasing chorus of  

> voices calling for schools to self-police and restrict the number of  

> students that they accept, but I'm sure we can all guess how much  

> effect that has had (protip: rhymes with zero). I haven't seen the  

> same thing from the games industry, nor am I suggesting that it  

> should be implemented: I'd love to see the day where we have 300+  

> game design programs graduating 500+ students each per year. I'm  

> just curious if anyone on this list has considered the subject.

>

> -Dan

>

>

> On Apr 1, 2009, at 10:13 PM, Jose P. Zagal wrote:

> I also have the impression that any bad news in the games industry  

> is automatically attributed to the economy. Truth is, game companies  

> have always trimmed people, closed studies, and so on. I'm not sure  

> that things are particularly worse than before. I'm not saying that  

> they're rosy either, just that it easy to get caught up in the  

> negative hype.

>

> For example, I would have said that GDC seemed pretty empty...but  

> the attendance numbers would clearly show me wrong. :-)

>

>

> Jose

>

>

> Ian Schreiber wrote:

> This is a great question, and in fact one of the big things I was  

> hoping to get out of GDC this year was an answer to the question:  

> why all the layoffs when games (judging by revenue) are still a  

> growth industry?

> This is just my opinion (based on talking to a lot of people and  

> trying to "read between the lines" on the expo floor), but I think  

> it comes down to two things:

> 1) A lot of game developers are, frankly, not superstars. Game  

> companies with a lot of mediocre employees are trying to cut the  

> deadwood.

> 2) Since everyone is doing this at the same time, it causes a  

> cascade effect that is really benefitting development shops. Want to  

> lay people off, but afraid of cutting the staff too much? No  

> problem, there's lots of people looking for work, so you can cut  

> deep and then staff up fast if you need to later on. Want to hire  

> people? That's also no problem, lots of talent in the job market  

> right now.

> Now, I did see some companies hiring very aggressively. I also saw a  

> number of geographic regions heavily incentivizing developers to  

> move to their region (seriously, probably a third of the booths in  

> North Hall were a location).

> Corollaries:

> * Students are going to have a rough time of it for now. The bar has  

> officially been raised. I think the industry will always have a  

> place for people who are genuinely skilled and talented, but the  

> marginal students should be thinking about another line of work  

> that's less demanding.

> * The regions that are trying to attract developers (such as those  

> with booths) are worth looking at for students who are willing to  

> move out of the country AND start their own independent studio while  

> their burn rate is low. I don't normally advise this to my students  

> (starting a business when you have no experience is a great way to  

> lose everything you have) but in the rare case when a student is  

> ready to take this step, it seems to be a great time for it.

> * If your institution is looking to hire industry-experienced people  

> for teaching positions, this is a really great time to staff up your  

> department. A lot of people are getting sick and tired of the  

> layoffs and would like something that at least has the appearance of  

> stability :)

> * With so many schools churning out game-related degrees each year  

> and the industry growth not keeping pace, I can't see this changing  

> in the near future. But it does mean that as schools, the bar has  

> been raised on us as well; the schools with mediocre programs that  

> produce mediocre graduates will find their students unable to find  

> work.

> - Ian

> --- On *Wed, 4/1/09, Brena Smith /<brena.smith at gmail.com>/* wrote:

>   From: Brena Smith <brena.smith at gmail.com>

>   Subject: [game_edu] Game studies and the economy

>   To: "IGDA Game Education Listserv" <game_edu at igda.org>

>   Date: Wednesday, April 1, 2009, 12:54 PM

>   Hi all,

>   I have two questions: First, I know that all educational

>   institutions are not untouched by the economy these days - but have

>   any of you seen any specific impact on game studies  

> departments?     Second, any thoughts on how the economy has  

> impacted the electronic

>   game industry in general?  Are game companies seeing a lot of

>   layoffs?  Are students still able to find jobs?

>   Many thanks!

>   Brena

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Stacey Simmons, Ph.D.
Associate Director for Economic Development
Director, Baton Rouge Area Digital Industries Consortium
Director, Red Stick International Animation Festival
Center for Computation & Technology
216 Johnston Hall
Louisiana State University
Baton Rouge, LA 70801

225-279-2540 (mobile)
ssimmons at cct.lsu.edu

www.cct.lsu.edu
www.bradic.org
www.redstickfestival.org

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