[game_edu] Here goes the first shoe . . .

[Magy Seif El-Nasr]

The framework does not impose any structure to the courses or topics 
covered, which I think was the problem discussed by John.
The idea of the framework is to keep it open and let each institution 
dictate that, but may be we should include some recommendations 
depending on the intended goal of the program, where these 
recommendations would include some suggestions in terms of structure and 
timing of topics taught.

richard at moyaentertainment.com wrote:

> John, 

>

> Did your school follow the general Education Framework this S.I.G. Has put together or was it totally different?  Perhaps it is a good time for a review?

>

> Rich

>

>

> Sent on the Now Network� from my Sprint® BlackBerry

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: John Peterson <johnmpetersonii at gmail.com>

>

> Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 09:13:31 

> To: IGDA Game Education Listserv<game_edu at igda.org>

> Subject: Re: [game_edu] Here goes the first shoe . . .

>

>

> As a recent graduate of a game programming bachelor degree program here 

> in the states, I can tell you that student expectations are never quite 

> the same as what the program actually is.  This can be shown by the 

> graduation rate at the for-profit school I attended (which shall remain 

> nameless).

> While my wave of the program started with around 40 students, only 4 

> graduated with me. 

>

> A good number of students left early, because they are kids and didn't 

> realize that programming required math!  Another wave left after the 

> first year (basic, "I don't know if college is for me" crowd).  Those 

> were expected.  What I didn't expect was the group of good, attentive 

> students that left during the second half of year two.  After speaking 

> with a few of them and examining their reasoning, I understood why.

> While the level of instruction at the school was quite good, and the 

> faculty was dedicated to doing whatever they could to help, the way the 

> program was structured was based around income.  The front end of the 

> program was designed to keep the first type of student there as long as 

> possible. 

>

> You see, most of the early classes were based on examining design and 

> playing games with the occasional math, physics, programming classes 

> sprinkled in.  This kept the kids who were there to, "Play games for a 

> living."  Now, while this seems perfectly fine at first, what the school 

> did was stretch what could have easily been one design class into four.  

> Not only did this cost extra money for the student, but it pushed some 

> really necessary basic classes farther back into the program.  This had 

> the extra effect of making it impossible to cover some equally important 

> advanced topics near the end of the program.

>

> Now, I am all for the, "College is what you make of it" mindset.  

> However, advanced techniques in Game Programming are difficult to pick 

> up on your own.  There is simply too much information available.  This 

> is the point where the student needs to do the most on their own, but 

> because so much basic technique was pushed back to the tail end of 

> program, no one understood those advanced techniques they were trying to 

> learn on their own with little or no guidance as well as they should have. 

>

> To make a long story short, (I know, too late), the school sacrificed 

> the long term benefit of the students that would finish the program for 

> the $$ of whoever they could get to sign on the dotted line.  The last 

> set of students that left, left because they weren't worried about the 

> degree.  They just wanted the knowledge.  When they realized they could 

> do that alone just as effectively based on the remaining classes, and 

> that they were going to have to learn the more advanced techniques 

> themselves anyway, they decided to save the money.  Oh, while most of my 

> school mates have now located programming positions, only 2 have made it 

> into the games industry.  They were 2 of the students who left early.

>

> This is why I can empathize a bit with the lawsuit.  Some of these 

> programs are making promises that they can't possibly keep.  Some of 

> them don't have a clue of how to institute a program in game creation, 

> be it design or programming.  The last know exactly what they are doing, 

> but are simply looking to exploit their student body for as much cash as 

> possible.  While my school didn't fall into any of these categories, it 

> mingled with all of them.  These schools need to learn that the best way 

> to gain students, and therefore income, is to produce the best program 

> they can and earn a reputation for results.

>

>

>  

> Robert Farr wrote:

>   

>> As a student on a degree program in the UK myself, I can say this, I've

>> noticed that the students that came onto the degree with me arrived

>> expecting to be taught how to do various things and during the first year

>> that's exactly what happened. And come the second year, when the learning is

>> supposed to be more student led there's been a definite period of denial and

>> adjustment that's had to happen for us before we've been able to move on

>> again. 

>> How many of us will make it through this second year I'm not quite sure but

>> one thing I'm certain of is that the people who make it into the third year

>> won't be the dossers (Lazy), though some of us might be terrible

>> procrastinators (Looks at self).

>> I find myself wondering if more could be done to instil a 'go out and learn'

>> mindset in students, maybe often-times that is what's missing. Other times I

>> can say there's a case of it being something that needs to be learnt but

>> which I'm not overly fond of the idea of doing as a job in industry, for

>> example I'm much more comfortable doing level/game design but in order to do

>> level design I need to pick up texturing (Back filling knowledge that wasn't

>> taught in the first year) which I'm uncomfortable with and thus, find it

>> hard to sit down and just learn it.

>>

>> -----Original Message-----

>> From: game_edu-bounces at igda.org [mailto:game_edu-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf

>> Of kevin at kogsspin.com

>> Sent: 15 April 2009 4:37 PM

>> To: game_edu at igda.org

>> Subject: Re: [game_edu] Here goes the first shoe . . .

>>

>>

>> I totally agree with Susan and despite my agonizing efforts to try to  

>> seem "non-finger-pointy" I can see where I may have failed.  Having  

>> taught at two "for-profit" schools (I'm at one now), I was merely  

>> pointing out that they are more susceptible to these types of suits.   

>> When was the last time a land-grant university was sued for deceptive  

>> business practices?

>>

>> Sorry if I caused offense, but I thought this would be a pertinent  

>> topic for this forum and knew someone had to just suck it up and post  

>> it.  Now I'm going to see if it made the IGDA forums yet.

>>

>> As for my take on the situation, I'm in the "school is what you make  

>> of it" camp.  So even in the worst situations, the fact that you  

>> isolated so many hours a week for school and were exposed to  

>> techniques and textbooks means you should have left there with more  

>> knowledge and experience than when you entered.  If you sat there with  

>> your mouth open expecting to be spoon-fed an industry-acing education  

>> (at any school), then you began your journey on faulty premises and  

>> that is what we can fix.  We can make sure any freshly spawned  

>> developers-to-be know how to evaluate a program and pick the one that  

>> is right for his or her needs.

>>

>> --Kevin

>>

>> ------------------------------

>>

>> Message: 5

>> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 18:00:08 -0700

>> From: Susan Gold <sgold at btrout.com>

>> Subject: Re: [game_edu] Here goes the first shoe . . .

>> To: IGDA Game Education Listserv <game_edu at igda.org>

>> Message-ID: <C60A7FA8.1C918%sgold at btrout.com>

>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

>>

>> I think this is an interesting topic, but please everyone, this is not a

>> pick on the ?for profit? program listserv. This is for thoughtful discourse.

>> Note, since this a lawsuit, I know students and school representatives can

>> not even discuss this in an open forum.

>>

>> I hope that we all respect each other enough to realize that all programs

>> have some great and some bad instructors. Pointing a finger also means that

>> you have three fingers pointing back at yourself.

>>

>> The type of thing that would make sense to me is if we can find a way to

>> help these students. Maybe they should all take Ian?s Free Summer Game

>> Design class? What other ideas might we be able to give them?

>>

>> Susan

>>

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