[game_edu] Here goes the first shoe . . .

[John Peterson]

Totally different.  They brought in some industry people to go over what 
was needed and used that to guide the curriculum a bit, but a good 
amount of the program (according to a few professors I spoke to) was 
designed to emulate an existing tech program they had in place to allow 
for as few additional resources as possible. 

Also, I wish to correct myself, one of the graduating students from a 
term or two previous to mine contacted me and informed me he is working 
at a (once again unnamed) game studio.  So there is at least one. 

richard at moyaentertainment.com wrote:

> John, 

>

> Did your school follow the general Education Framework this S.I.G. Has put together or was it totally different?  Perhaps it is a good time for a review?

>

> Rich

>

>

> Sent on the Now Network� from my Sprint® BlackBerry

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: John Peterson <johnmpetersonii at gmail.com>

>

> Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 09:13:31 

> To: IGDA Game Education Listserv<game_edu at igda.org>

> Subject: Re: [game_edu] Here goes the first shoe . . .

>

>

> As a recent graduate of a game programming bachelor degree program here 

> in the states, I can tell you that student expectations are never quite 

> the same as what the program actually is.  This can be shown by the 

> graduation rate at the for-profit school I attended (which shall remain 

> nameless).

> While my wave of the program started with around 40 students, only 4 

> graduated with me. 

>

> A good number of students left early, because they are kids and didn't 

> realize that programming required math!  Another wave left after the 

> first year (basic, "I don't know if college is for me" crowd).  Those 

> were expected.  What I didn't expect was the group of good, attentive 

> students that left during the second half of year two.  After speaking 

> with a few of them and examining their reasoning, I understood why.

> While the level of instruction at the school was quite good, and the 

> faculty was dedicated to doing whatever they could to help, the way the 

> program was structured was based around income.  The front end of the 

> program was designed to keep the first type of student there as long as 

> possible. 

>

> You see, most of the early classes were based on examining design and 

> playing games with the occasional math, physics, programming classes 

> sprinkled in.  This kept the kids who were there to, "Play games for a 

> living."  Now, while this seems perfectly fine at first, what the school 

> did was stretch what could have easily been one design class into four.  

> Not only did this cost extra money for the student, but it pushed some 

> really necessary basic classes farther back into the program.  This had 

> the extra effect of making it impossible to cover some equally important 

> advanced topics near the end of the program.

>

> Now, I am all for the, "College is what you make of it" mindset.  

> However, advanced techniques in Game Programming are difficult to pick 

> up on your own.  There is simply too much information available.  This 

> is the point where the student needs to do the most on their own, but 

> because so much basic technique was pushed back to the tail end of 

> program, no one understood those advanced techniques they were trying to 

> learn on their own with little or no guidance as well as they should have. 

>

> To make a long story short, (I know, too late), the school sacrificed 

> the long term benefit of the students that would finish the program for 

> the $$ of whoever they could get to sign on the dotted line.  The last 

> set of students that left, left because they weren't worried about the 

> degree.  They just wanted the knowledge.  When they realized they could 

> do that alone just as effectively based on the remaining classes, and 

> that they were going to have to learn the more advanced techniques 

> themselves anyway, they decided to save the money.  Oh, while most of my 

> school mates have now located programming positions, only 2 have made it 

> into the games industry.  They were 2 of the students who left early.

>

> This is why I can empathize a bit with the lawsuit.  Some of these 

> programs are making promises that they can't possibly keep.  Some of 

> them don't have a clue of how to institute a program in game creation, 

> be it design or programming.  The last know exactly what they are doing, 

> but are simply looking to exploit their student body for as much cash as 

> possible.  While my school didn't fall into any of these categories, it 

> mingled with all of them.  These schools need to learn that the best way 

> to gain students, and therefore income, is to produce the best program 

> they can and earn a reputation for results.

>

>

>  

> Robert Farr wrote:

>   

>> As a student on a degree program in the UK myself, I can say this, I've

>> noticed that the students that came onto the degree with me arrived

>> expecting to be taught how to do various things and during the first year

>> that's exactly what happened. And come the second year, when the learning is

>> supposed to be more student led there's been a definite period of denial and

>> adjustment that's had to happen for us before we've been able to move on

>> again. 

>> How many of us will make it through this second year I'm not quite sure but

>> one thing I'm certain of is that the people who make it into the third year

>> won't be the dossers (Lazy), though some of us might be terrible

>> procrastinators (Looks at self).

>> I find myself wondering if more could be done to instil a 'go out and learn'

>> mindset in students, maybe often-times that is what's missing. Other times I

>> can say there's a case of it being something that needs to be learnt but

>> which I'm not overly fond of the idea of doing as a job in industry, for

>> example I'm much more comfortable doing level/game design but in order to do

>> level design I need to pick up texturing (Back filling knowledge that wasn't

>> taught in the first year) which I'm uncomfortable with and thus, find it

>> hard to sit down and just learn it.

>>

>> -----Original Message-----

>> From: game_edu-bounces at igda.org [mailto:game_edu-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf

>> Of kevin at kogsspin.com

>> Sent: 15 April 2009 4:37 PM

>> To: game_edu at igda.org

>> Subject: Re: [game_edu] Here goes the first shoe . . .

>>

>>

>> I totally agree with Susan and despite my agonizing efforts to try to  

>> seem "non-finger-pointy" I can see where I may have failed.  Having  

>> taught at two "for-profit" schools (I'm at one now), I was merely  

>> pointing out that they are more susceptible to these types of suits.   

>> When was the last time a land-grant university was sued for deceptive  

>> business practices?

>>

>> Sorry if I caused offense, but I thought this would be a pertinent  

>> topic for this forum and knew someone had to just suck it up and post  

>> it.  Now I'm going to see if it made the IGDA forums yet.

>>

>> As for my take on the situation, I'm in the "school is what you make  

>> of it" camp.  So even in the worst situations, the fact that you  

>> isolated so many hours a week for school and were exposed to  

>> techniques and textbooks means you should have left there with more  

>> knowledge and experience than when you entered.  If you sat there with  

>> your mouth open expecting to be spoon-fed an industry-acing education  

>> (at any school), then you began your journey on faulty premises and  

>> that is what we can fix.  We can make sure any freshly spawned  

>> developers-to-be know how to evaluate a program and pick the one that  

>> is right for his or her needs.

>>

>> --Kevin

>>

>> ------------------------------

>>

>> Message: 5

>> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 18:00:08 -0700

>> From: Susan Gold <sgold at btrout.com>

>> Subject: Re: [game_edu] Here goes the first shoe . . .

>> To: IGDA Game Education Listserv <game_edu at igda.org>

>> Message-ID: <C60A7FA8.1C918%sgold at btrout.com>

>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

>>

>> I think this is an interesting topic, but please everyone, this is not a

>> pick on the ?for profit? program listserv. This is for thoughtful discourse.

>> Note, since this a lawsuit, I know students and school representatives can

>> not even discuss this in an open forum.

>>

>> I hope that we all respect each other enough to realize that all programs

>> have some great and some bad instructors. Pointing a finger also means that

>> you have three fingers pointing back at yourself.

>>

>> The type of thing that would make sense to me is if we can find a way to

>> help these students. Maybe they should all take Ian?s Free Summer Game

>> Design class? What other ideas might we be able to give them?

>>

>> Susan

>>

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>>     

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