[game_edu] question from the community

[Jim Parker]

I don't find it even slightly ironic.

I left the field (or my department) partly because creativity was not 
valued all that much. My interest in games, and in digital media, 
computer music etc etc made me strange.

And I have never said that there is no creativity in CS. It is rare, as 
it is in many disciplines, and my own experience is that it is rarer in 
math/CS than in drama or literature. Your experience may differ. (the 
brightest people I know are *not* CS majors, but that's anecdotal) And 
finally, it is not the creative aspects of a computer scientist that the 
game developers want, but their technical ability.

My overall (and possibly final) statement on this thread would be that 
CS is not the best, or even a primary, focus of study to be successful 
finding work in the game industry. That's all, really.

So go ahead and do as I do. Get a math degree, I don't regret it. Learn 
'computer science', however you wish to define that. But study seriously 
that which interests you most - game development is multidisciplinary, 
and if you are very good at a required skill, and create interesting 
games as a team, you will be valuable.

Ted, you are a good spokesman for your discipline, as I am not. I 
respect that, even if I don't always agree with you. No offense taken of 
course, and I hope the reciprocal.

Jim

On 6/28/2011 10:43 PM, pawlicki at cs.rochester.edu wrote:

>

> Does the "nope", refer to "perhaps inadvertently"?

>

> Jim - don't you find it just slightly ironic that you

> manage to teach in what you term a "creative" major

> while all your formal training has been in what you

> seem to classify as the "non-creative" fields of

> mathematics/CompSci/Informatics ? Isn't the example

> of success and creativity demonstrated by your own

> life and career the in direct contradiction to the

> advice you seem to offer? Doesn't this just seem

> a bit along the lines of "do as I say, not as I do"?

>

> No offense.

>

> Ted

>

>

>

>> Nope.

>>

>> Computer science is more than programming, but it is not less.

>> (Dijkstra) It is the programming skills, and to some degree a knowledge

>> of algorithms, that game developers use most. It is the algorithms that

>> are embodied in the tools I mentioned, and CS folks and engineers

>> certainly participated in the development of those.

>>

>> Creativity is a different issue, and perhaps Ted and I have different

>> sets of students to draw on. Creativity is a relatively rare thing, in

>> CS and in other fields. That's one reason I like to see masters degrees

>> - more time to assess that aspect. But having taught in CS, Art, and

>> Drama, I noted that what I thought of as creative existed to a lesser

>> degree in the science students. Also, what I think of as mathematical

>> existed to a lesser degree in the art students. No offense, simply an

>> observation (from one who spent most of his career with CS students).

>>

>> The answer, IMO, is to always pick from the top few percent of the group

>> you are hiring from. Using the best is always a better promise of success.

>>

>> Jim

>>

>> On 6/28/2011 10:11 PM, pawlicki at cs.rochester.edu wrote:

>>> Ryan,

>>>

>>> I don't want to get into an argument, but I do feel the need to

>>> debunk some common myths in the post below. Jim's post (perhaps

>>> inadvertently) implies that computer scientists are "programmers".

>>> Computer Science is not "programming". (That's like calling

>>> astronomers "telescopers").  Jim's post also (perhaps

>>> inadvertently) implies that computer scientists exhibit low creativity.

>>> Or that CS is not a "creative subject".

>>> The fact is that computer science offers one of the highest career

>>> opportunities for creative expression.

>>>

>>> Yours,

>>>

>>> Ted

>>>

>>>

>>> (http://www.schoolsintheusa.com/TopReasonstoMajorInComputerScience.cfm)

>>> Top Reasons to Major in Computer Science Programs In America

>>>       Computing is part of everything you do (really)!

>>>       Computing will develop your ability to solve complex problems.

>>>       You will make a difference.

>>>       Computing jobs are among the highest paid and have the highest job

>>> satisfaction.

>>>       There are more computing jobs than there are people to fill them.

>>>       A computing major can serve as a competitive advantage regardless

>>> of

>>> what career filed you chose.

>>>       Computing is creative and supports creativity in other fields.

>>>       Computing allows you to work independently or as a member of a

>>> team.

>>>       Computing is seen by employers as part of a well-rounded graduate.

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>> Interesting

>>>>

>>>> As one who taught Computer Science fot 26 years, and created the game

>>>> programming course and concentration in my department, I found that CS

>>>> was a discouraging and negative place to try and work on games. I

>>>> finally gave up and moved to the drama and art departments.

>>>>

>>>> There are many ways they were negative, in the face of evidence that

>>>> they were mistaken, but the most telling statement was from a theory of

>>>> computation person who said that offering courses on games 'sent the

>>>> wrong message'. Not sure what that message was, but perhaps it was

>>>> 'computer science can be fun and interesting'.

>>>>

>>>> My opinion is that it very strongly depends on the school and the

>>>> department, and a CS degree is not always (or even often) the best

>>>> route. When putting the course together, it became clear that the

>>>> programmers on a game development team had the least creative

>>>> contribution, often limited to statements like 'we can't draw that many

>>>> polygons per second'.

>>>>

>>>> Nowadays the tools available have reduced the need for programming

>>>> quite

>>>> a bit. When I started this work in 1999 there were about 6-7

>>>> programmers

>>>> on a team of 10 on a development group. Now its more like 2-3. The game

>>>> engines and physics packages have really helped, and now we can say ' I

>>>> want to do this' and not have to express it in code all of the time.

>>>> The

>>>> tools can do it, and the programmers can easily link those into the

>>>> game.

>>>>

>>>> In that sense game development has become much more democratic.

>>>> Creative

>>>> people can now create prototypes even, and that is quite helpful in

>>>> demoing mechanics. My art students can now build games in weeks that

>>>> used to be a whole semester in CS.

>>>>

>>>> Encouragement comes in many forms - mine would be that you don't have

>>>> to

>>>> be a computer science major to develop games, and it's not even an

>>>> advantage in many cases. The Nike rule 'Just Do it' would be my

>>>> offering

>>>> to them. Build a portfolio, work with programmers and artists and

>>>> designers, and take a degree in a creative subject. Get a masters would

>>>> be good advice.

>>>>

>>>> Jim

>>>>

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