[SBE] SBE Digest, Vol 132, Issue 5
Curt Yengst
cyengst at star991fm.com
Thu Jan 29 15:29:09 EST 2009
I agree with you that having a caller on a cue speaker that's turned up too loud will definitely cause problems; but this is happening with callers live on the air with the jock listening to the caller via headphones, and good phones at that. (Of course, he may very well have them turned up to "11.")
________________________________
From: sbe-bounces at sbe.org on behalf of Gary
Sent: Thu 1/29/2009 2:49 PM
To: sbe at sbe.org
Subject: Re: [SBE] SBE Digest, Vol 132, Issue 5
Trouble shooting phone hybrid problems should start with looking at the audio being feed into the hybrid input and audio from hybrid output. Remember, whether digital or analog hybrid, the idea is to provide isolation between send and receive. Any cross-talk, like in the mixing board, where the mix-minus is derived will degrade the null depth of the hybrid. This is called the trans-hybrid loss. More loss means a better hybrid. It is my opinion that if the caller is somehow being fed into a speaker that is picked up by the DJ's mike, this is, in effect, defeats the mix-minus, causes a ringing effect as caller audio fluctuates because the hybrid (if it is a digital hybrid) does not have enough dynamic range in it's null depth to create a good trans-hybrid loss. Bottom line: check your send/receive audio in board for isolation and make sure the DJ uses good headphones..Whether the call is from a cell phone, land-line or IP it is not really important. Most phones in USA and Europe are "IP-like" anyway,,,Maybe third world is still POTS....
G.P. Brefini
SBE Member
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Subject: SBE Digest, Vol 132, Issue 5
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SBE Roundtable
Today's Topics:
1. Re: Hybrid issues. (Ben Weiss)
2. Re: Hybrid issues. (Taylor, William W.)
3. Re: Hybrid issues. (Curt Yengst)
4. Re: Hybrid issues. (Curt Yengst)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 12:54:45 -0600
From: "Ben Weiss" <bhweiss at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [SBE] Hybrid issues.
To: "'sbe member discussion mail list'" <sbe at sbe.org>
Message-ID: <20E7B8B3ED54461AAA38E2B28F8C602B at BenWeiss>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
How does the DJ hear the caller? If it's through the cue speaker in the
console the caller's audio can get back into the DJ's mic and that can cause
an echo effect on some calls. It might not be apparent to the caller but it
makes for an interesting effect when the call is placed on the air and the
caller audio and DJ mic is mixed to mono. This phenomenon might be more
apparent when recording calls to VoxPro but still could be a problem if the
cue speaker is on when the call is being aired live.
Ben
_____
From: sbe-bounces at sbe.org [mailto:sbe-bounces at sbe.org <mailto:sbe-bounces at sbe.org?> ] On Behalf Of Richard
Hardy
Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 11:05 AM
To: sbe member discussion mail list
Subject: Re: [SBE] Hybrid issues.
Curt:
I just finished an install last week of a D75 with the SP-75 phone module
and a Telos 1x6. We used the "hybrid out" from the D75 to the Telos.
Everything works great in both live and recorded mode. I had some problems
when first tested with breaking across the hybrid but that was an issue of
getting the level adjustment on the Telos correct. They are very happy with
this equipment.
Richard Hardy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Curt Yengst"
To: "sbe member discussion mail list"
Subject: Re: [SBE] Hybrid issues.
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 11:07:12 -0500
Not sure this is the issue. Although we don't use a profanity
delay (yet), we do delay our analog signal to match up with our HD
signal, which creates an on-air delay of about 8 seconds. This
feedback/echo is happening almost instantly (less than half a
second).
________________________________
From: sbe-bounces at sbe.org on behalf of chscherer at everestkc.net
Sent: Thu 1/29/2009 11:06 AM
To: sbe member discussion mail list
Subject: Re: [SBE] Hybrid issues.
Curt said:
"One jock claims it only happens on live calls, not on pre-recorded calls."
Is it this simple:
Are the problem callers not turning their radios off?
----- Original Message -----
From: Chris Tarr
Date: Thursday, January 29, 2009 9:59 am
Subject: Re: [SBE] Hybrid issues.
> Curt-
>
> I may be reading that wrong, but wouldn't you want "mics only" to feed
> the hybrid? Not sure what the "hybrid out" feed would do (except
> maybe offer an option to send audio form the audition channel down the
> line) but the only thing that should feed the hybrid on a regular
> basis is the microphones. While an echo is indicative of poor
> cancellation, it seems like maybe the caller audio is getting fed back
> down the line.
>
> -Chris
>
> Christopher "Doc" Tarr CBRE, CBNT, DRB
> Director of Engineering/IT
> Entercom Milwaukee/Entercom Madison
>
> On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 9:46 AM, Curt Yengst
> wrote:
> > Dear partners in crime:
> >
> > I'm in the process of troubleshooting a complaint from some of
> our jocks.
> > When they take calls on our Telos 2x12, sometimes the call will
> have a bit
> > of feedback/echo under the caller. If the jock pots down the
> 2x12 output at
> > the console, it can be somewhat controlled, but then the
> complaint is that
> > the caller audio is too low in level (duh!). It doesn't happen
> on every
> > call, but it's enough to irritate them. We have the Telos 2x12
> connected to
> > a Wheatstone D-75 audio console, using their SP-75 "Superphone"
> input> module, which has its own mix-minus. It also has the
> ability to generate
> > separate outputs for hybrid out, "mics only" out (everything but the
> > caller), and "callers only" out. We're using the hybrid outs to
> feed the
> > 2x12 inputs. The Caller 1 output of the 2x12 (which gets used
> almost> exclusively) is split with a Y-cable, with one side going
> to the caller
> > input on the Superphone module and the other side going directly
> to the
> > caller side of our VoxPro workstation. One jock claims it only
> happens on
> > live calls, not on pre-recorded calls.
> >
> > I e-mailed Telos, and the answer was basically that it was a
> phone company
> > issue (poor echo cancellation), and since it was coming into the
> station> sounding that way to begin with, there was nothing we
> could do about it.
> > Wheatstone basically said the only way their equipment would
> possibly> exhibit this issue was if caller conferencing wasn't
> properly set up. Since
> > the problem happens with single callers, this is moot.
> >
> > Any thoughts?
> >
> > Curt Yengst, CSRE
> > WAWZ
_______________________________________________
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http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/sbe
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Message: 2
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 13:55:13 -0500
From: "Taylor, William W." <taylorww at cityofgainesville.org>
Subject: Re: [SBE] Hybrid issues.
To: "sbe member discussion mail list" <sbe at sbe.org>
Message-ID:
<E9A69D50E3EFF04895C83C54B7CCEB580857B54B at ggmail.gg.cog.ci.gainesville.fl.us>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hi Curt,
I'm wondering. Is this problem being detected at the studio monitors,
the DJ headphones, over the air? Are they all being fed with the same
source audio (PGM)? If it is not present on-air, have you considered a
delay in the signal to the headphone pre-amp or studio monitoring
system? Maybe an intermittent change of analog phone line voltage.
Bill
William W Taylor CEV, CEA, CBT
Broadcast Technical Services Coordinator
City of Gainesville
200 East University Ave
Mail Station 68
Gainesville, FL 32602
(352) 316-5973
-----Original Message-----
From: sbe-bounces at sbe.org [mailto:sbe-bounces at sbe.org <mailto:sbe-bounces at sbe.org?> ] On Behalf Of Curt
Yengst
Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 11:42 AM
To: sbe member discussion mail list
Subject: Re: [SBE] Hybrid issues.
>From Jerry at Wheatstone:
Hi Curt,
The signal that is present at the Hybrid 1 and Hybrid 2 outputs is
whichever bus is selected by the MXM feed (caller feed)switch, minus the
appropriate caller, even if the caller is assigned to that bus. For
example with the SP-75 assigned to PGM, (which puts both callers on the
PGM bus) and with the MXM feed switch set to PGM, at the Hybrid 1 output
you would hear everything that is assigned to the PGM bus, including
caller 2, but minus caller 1. At the Hybrid 2 output you would hear
everything that is assigned to the PGM bus, including caller 1, but
minus caller 2.
The Composite Out includes the DJ, both callers, and any any audio that
feeds the callers.
Mics out includes all the same audio as is at Composite Out, minus both
callers.
Jerry
So it sounds like the Hybrid Outs provide a "mix-minus" to the hybrid,
just like "mics-only." Still, it might be worth a try to send the
"mics-only" output to the Telos input.
________________________________
From: sbe-bounces at sbe.org on behalf of Chris Tarr
Sent: Thu 1/29/2009 10:59 AM
To: sbe member discussion mail list
Subject: Re: [SBE] Hybrid issues.
Curt-
I may be reading that wrong, but wouldn't you want "mics only" to feed
the hybrid? Not sure what the "hybrid out" feed would do (except maybe
offer an option to send audio form the audition channel down the
line) but the only thing that should feed the hybrid on a regular basis
is the microphones. While an echo is indicative of poor cancellation,
it seems like maybe the caller audio is getting fed back down the line.
-Chris
Christopher "Doc" Tarr CBRE, CBNT, DRB
Director of Engineering/IT
Entercom Milwaukee/Entercom Madison
On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 9:46 AM, Curt Yengst <cyengst at star991fm.com>
wrote:
> Dear partners in crime:
>
> I'm in the process of troubleshooting a complaint from some of our
jocks.
> When they take calls on our Telos 2x12, sometimes the call will have a
> bit of feedback/echo under the caller. If the jock pots down the 2x12
> output at the console, it can be somewhat controlled, but then the
> complaint is that the caller audio is too low in level (duh!). It
> doesn't happen on every call, but it's enough to irritate them. We
> have the Telos 2x12 connected to a Wheatstone D-75 audio console,
> using their SP-75 "Superphone" input module, which has its own
> mix-minus. It also has the ability to generate separate outputs for
> hybrid out, "mics only" out (everything but the caller), and "callers
> only" out. We're using the hybrid outs to feed the
> 2x12 inputs. The Caller 1 output of the 2x12 (which gets used almost
> exclusively) is split with a Y-cable, with one side going to the
> caller input on the Superphone module and the other side going
> directly to the caller side of our VoxPro workstation. One jock
> claims it only happens on live calls, not on pre-recorded calls.
>
> I e-mailed Telos, and the answer was basically that it was a phone
> company issue (poor echo cancellation), and since it was coming into
> the station sounding that way to begin with, there was nothing we
could do about it.
> Wheatstone basically said the only way their equipment would possibly
> exhibit this issue was if caller conferencing wasn't properly set up.
> Since the problem happens with single callers, this is moot.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> Curt Yengst, CSRE
> WAWZ
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> The SBE Roundtable, SBE at sbe.org
> To unsubscribe, go to http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/options/sbe
>
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/sbe
>
_______________________________________________
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To unsubscribe, go to http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/options/sbe
http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/sbe
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 13:56:30 -0500
From: "Curt Yengst" <cyengst at star991fm.com>
Subject: Re: [SBE] Hybrid issues.
To: "sbe member discussion mail list" <sbe at sbe.org>
Message-ID:
<E831ACC9421AB04B9BEE3F73EC1EB9330336F1CA at NAOMI.pillar.local>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Richard:
We have this identical setup at our emergency studio at our transmitter site.
(D-75 with Telos 1x6). We had similar issues but got the level adjustments
happy.
________________________________
From: sbe-bounces at sbe.org on behalf of Richard Hardy
Sent: Thu 1/29/2009 12:04 PM
To: sbe member discussion mail list
Subject: Re: [SBE] Hybrid issues.
Curt:
I just finished an install last week of a D75 with the SP-75 phone module and a
Telos 1x6. We used the "hybrid out" from the D75 to the Telos. Everything
works great in both live and recorded mode. I had some problems when first
tested with breaking across the hybrid but that was an issue of getting the
level adjustment on the Telos correct. They are very happy with this equipment.
Richard Hardy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Curt Yengst"
To: "sbe member discussion mail list"
Subject: Re: [SBE] Hybrid issues.
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 11:07:12 -0500
Not sure this is the issue. Although we don't use a profanity
delay (yet), we do delay our analog signal to match up with our HD
signal, which creates an on-air delay of about 8 seconds. This
feedback/echo is happening almost instantly (less than half a
second).
________________________________
From: sbe-bounces at sbe.org on behalf of chscherer at everestkc.net
Sent: Thu 1/29/2009 11:06 AM
To: sbe member discussion mail list
Subject: Re: [SBE] Hybrid issues.
Curt said:
"One jock claims it only happens on live calls, not on pre-recorded calls."
Is it this simple:
Are the problem callers not turning their radios off?
----- Original Message -----
From: Chris Tarr
Date: Thursday, January 29, 2009 9:59 am
Subject: Re: [SBE] Hybrid issues.
> Curt-
>
> I may be reading that wrong, but wouldn't you want "mics only" to feed
> the hybrid? Not sure what the "hybrid out" feed would do (except
> maybe offer an option to send audio form the audition channel down the
> line) but the only thing that should feed the hybrid on a regular
> basis is the microphones. While an echo is indicative of poor
> cancellation, it seems like maybe the caller audio is getting fed back
> down the line.
>
> -Chris
>
> Christopher "Doc" Tarr CBRE, CBNT, DRB
> Director of Engineering/IT
> Entercom Milwaukee/Entercom Madison
>
> On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 9:46 AM, Curt Yengst
> wrote:
> > Dear partners in crime:
> >
> > I'm in the process of troubleshooting a complaint from some of
> our jocks.
> > When they take calls on our Telos 2x12, sometimes the call will
> have a bit
> > of feedback/echo under the caller. If the jock pots down the
> 2x12 output at
> > the console, it can be somewhat controlled, but then the
> complaint is that
> > the caller audio is too low in level (duh!). It doesn't happen
> on every
> > call, but it's enough to irritate them. We have the Telos 2x12
> connected to
> > a Wheatstone D-75 audio console, using their SP-75 "Superphone"
> input> module, which has its own mix-minus. It also has the
> ability to generate
> > separate outputs for hybrid out, "mics only" out (everything but the
> > caller), and "callers only" out. We're using the hybrid outs to
> feed the
> > 2x12 inputs. The Caller 1 output of the 2x12 (which gets used
> almost> exclusively) is split with a Y-cable, with one side going
> to the caller
> > input on the Superphone module and the other side going directly
> to the
> > caller side of our VoxPro workstation. One jock claims it only
> happens on
> > live calls, not on pre-recorded calls.
> >
> > I e-mailed Telos, and the answer was basically that it was a
> phone company
> > issue (poor echo cancellation), and since it was coming into the
> station> sounding that way to begin with, there was nothing we
> could do about it.
> > Wheatstone basically said the only way their equipment would
> possibly> exhibit this issue was if caller conferencing wasn't
> properly set up. Since
> > the problem happens with single callers, this is moot.
> >
> > Any thoughts?
> >
> > Curt Yengst, CSRE
> > WAWZ
_______________________________________________
The SBE Roundtable, SBE at sbe.org
To unsubscribe, go to http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/options/sbe
http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/sbe
_______________________________________________
The SBE Roundtable, SBE at sbe.org
To unsubscribe, go to http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/options/sbe
http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/sbe
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 13:58:13 -0500
From: "Curt Yengst" <cyengst at star991fm.com>
Subject: Re: [SBE] Hybrid issues.
To: "sbe member discussion mail list" <sbe at sbe.org>
Message-ID:
<E831ACC9421AB04B9BEE3F73EC1EB9330336F1CB at NAOMI.pillar.local>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Ben:
At first, we did have issues with jocks running the cue speaker too loud, but
that problem was pretty obvious. This problem only happens when the caller is
put live on the air, so the jock is hearing the caller via his headphones and
not the cue speaker. I suppose it could be that the jock is running his cans
too loud and we're getting some bleed.
________________________________
From: sbe-bounces at sbe.org on behalf of Ben Weiss
Sent: Thu 1/29/2009 1:54 PM
To: 'sbe member discussion mail list'
Subject: Re: [SBE] Hybrid issues.
How does the DJ hear the caller? If it's through the cue speaker in the console
the caller's audio can get back into the DJ's mic and that can cause an echo
effect on some calls. It might not be apparent to the caller but it makes for
an interesting effect when the call is placed on the air and the caller audio
and DJ mic is mixed to mono. This phenomenon might be more apparent when
recording calls to VoxPro but still could be a problem if the cue speaker is on
when the call is being aired live.
Ben
________________________________
From: sbe-bounces at sbe.org [mailto:sbe-bounces at sbe.org <mailto:sbe-bounces at sbe.org?> ] On Behalf Of Richard
Hardy
Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 11:05 AM
To: sbe member discussion mail list
Subject: Re: [SBE] Hybrid issues.
Curt:
I just finished an install last week of a D75 with the SP-75 phone module and a
Telos 1x6. We used the "hybrid out" from the D75 to the Telos. Everything
works great in both live and recorded mode. I had some problems when first
tested with breaking across the hybrid but that was an issue of getting the
level adjustment on the Telos correct. They are very happy with this equipment.
Richard Hardy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Curt Yengst"
To: "sbe member discussion mail list"
Subject: Re: [SBE] Hybrid issues.
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 11:07:12 -0500
Not sure this is the issue. Although we don't use a profanity
delay (yet), we do delay our analog signal to match up with our HD
signal, which creates an on-air delay of about 8 seconds. This
feedback/echo is happening almost instantly (less than half a
second).
________________________________
From: sbe-bounces at sbe.org on behalf of chscherer at everestkc.net
Sent: Thu 1/29/2009 11:06 AM
To: sbe member discussion mail list
Subject: Re: [SBE] Hybrid issues.
Curt said:
"One jock claims it only happens on live calls, not on pre-recorded calls."
Is it this simple:
Are the problem callers not turning their radios off?
----- Original Message -----
From: Chris Tarr
Date: Thursday, January 29, 2009 9:59 am
Subject: Re: [SBE] Hybrid issues.
> Curt-
>
> I may be reading that wrong, but wouldn't you want "mics only" to feed
> the hybrid? Not sure what the "hybrid out" feed would do (except
> maybe offer an option to send audio form the audition channel down the
> line) but the only thing that should feed the hybrid on a regular
> basis is the microphones. While an echo is indicative of poor
> cancellation, it seems like maybe the caller audio is getting fed back
> down the line.
>
> -Chris
>
> Christopher "Doc" Tarr CBRE, CBNT, DRB
> Director of Engineering/IT
> Entercom Milwaukee/Entercom Madison
>
> On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 9:46 AM, Curt Yengst
> wrote:
> > Dear partners in crime:
> >
> > I'm in the process of troubleshooting a complaint from some of
> our jocks.
> > When they take calls on our Telos 2x12, sometimes the call will
> have a bit
> > of feedback/echo under the caller. If the jock pots down the
> 2x12 output at
> > the console, it can be somewhat controlled, but then the
> complaint is that
> > the caller audio is too low in level (duh!). It doesn't happen
> on every
> > call, but it's enough to irritate them. We have the Telos 2x12
> connected to
> > a Wheatstone D-75 audio console, using their SP-75 "Superphone"
> input> module, which has its own mix-minus. It also has the
> ability to generate
> > separate outputs for hybrid out, "mics only" out (everything but the
> > caller), and "callers only" out. We're using the hybrid outs to
> feed the
> > 2x12 inputs. The Caller 1 output of the 2x12 (which gets used
> almost> exclusively) is split with a Y-cable, with one side going
> to the caller
> > input on the Superphone module and the other side going directly
> to the
> > caller side of our VoxPro workstation. One jock claims it only
> happens on
> > live calls, not on pre-recorded calls.
> >
> > I e-mailed Telos, and the answer was basically that it was a
> phone company
> > issue (poor echo cancellation), and since it was coming into the
> station> sounding that way to begin with, there was nothing we
> could do about it.
> > Wheatstone basically said the only way their equipment would
> possibly> exhibit this issue was if caller conferencing wasn't
> properly set up. Since
> > the problem happens with single callers, this is moot.
> >
> > Any thoughts?
> >
> > Curt Yengst, CSRE
> > WAWZ
_______________________________________________
The SBE Roundtable, SBE at sbe.org
To unsubscribe, go to http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/options/sbe
http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/sbe
_______________________________________________
The SBE Roundtable, SBE at sbe.org
To unsubscribe, go to http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/options/sbe
http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/sbe
------------------------------
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