[game_edu] Game studies and the economy

[Scott Maddock]

Eh, that was indeed an oversimplified statement, I should have been more
careful.  I was specifically ignoring QA (as those are usually hourly, not
salaried), and I was thinking in east coast terms, which is also
misleading.  Apologies for the lack of details!

That said, I think I'd still expect a graduate who manages to land a
salaried position as a designer, artist, or programmer, to start at 40k
(outside of California), unless they're going to a startup that doesn't have
the budget to be paying any of their employees very well yet.

2009/4/2 Ian Schreiber <ai864 at yahoo.com>


>   I think that may be oversimplifying. 40K in California might be

> equivalent to 20-25K anywhere else, so to really compare apples to apples

> you have to give the location and salary (and also benefits, which are

> sometimes a considerable part of the total compensation package).

>

> In general, junior game designers are going to make less than other fields

> because it's a high-demand/prestige position; audio will make less because

> they get no love, as you say; and QA will make less, because they get even

> less respect than audio (QA is also the most likely to be part-time hourly

> with no benefits).

>

> I'm also not sure if people with game-related degrees will start at higher

> or lower salary than those with more general liberal arts degrees, when

> hired into comparable positions. IGDA salary survey doesn't make the

> distinction. I'd suspect there would be little difference in actual pay,

> although there's probably a difference in hiring rate.

>

> - Ian

>

> --- On *Thu, 4/2/09, Scott Maddock <smaddock at gmail.com>* wrote:

>

>

> From: Scott Maddock <smaddock at gmail.com>

> Subject: Re: [game_edu] Game studies and the economy

> To: "IGDA Game Education Listserv" <game_edu at igda.org>

> Date: Thursday, April 2, 2009, 12:05 PM

>

>

> I would hesitantly guess that no one graduating with a game-related degree

> is going to start under 40k (except maybe audio...sorry, guys, but you don't

> get as much love as you should!).  Does that sound roughly accurate to most

> of you?

>

> 2009/4/2 Dan Rosenthal <swatjester at gmail.com<http://us.mc397.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=swatjester@gmail.com>

> >

>

>> Oh, I'm sure the salary gaps are nowhere near that of the law industry

>> (300K+ per year difference between a senior associate and a junior at top

>> firms) but with the sheer number of students looking to make their way into

>> the industry, simple economic theory would indicate that the average

>> starting wage for them would likely be going down, or at least staying

>> static in relation to increases in COL and inflation.

>> I could be entirely wrong, it's just a theory. But it seems to fit.

>>

>> -Dan

>>

>>  On Apr 2, 2009, at 10:24 AM, Scott Maddock wrote:

>>

>>  I think you may be on to something with this law industry comparison,

>> though I would think it's specifically being focused at the senior level

>> developers who, as Ian bluntly put it, just aren't superstars.  If you have

>> someone who has "paid his/her dues" and is making notably more than an entry

>> level dev would, without producing significantly better work, then I can

>> certainly see a studio making that trade.  But in general (and maybe I just

>> haven't been working long enough to find out what the "big bucks" is in this

>> industry...though I do read the results of the yearly salary survey!), a

>> senior level dev doesn't make SO much more than an entry level that it'd be

>> worth trading down in -experience-.  Until you've actually -worked- in the

>> industry, even if it's just an internship or a co-op, you really haven't

>> gotten your feet wet.

>>

>> Somehow, I don't think that studios are really worried about the stigma of

>> constantly firing senior employees to hire cheap new ones (and then repeat

>> the process) to keep costs down (which is sad; they should be, because it's

>> wrong, but I digress...).

>>

>> On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 12:39 AM, Dan Rosenthal <swatjester at gmail.com<http://us.mc397.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=swatjester@gmail.com>

>> > wrote:

>>

>>> Has anyone considered whether the game industry is experiencing a

>>> phenomenon similar to the law industry, where a combination of a tightening

>>> economy and a glut of talented new graduates willing to work for extremely

>>> low pay to compete for the limited number of jobs, has lead to

>>> belt-tightening measures among senior staff?  It's been my experience that

>>> as far as major law firms go, many have been firing large numbers of

>>> highly-paid senior associates, to replace them with cheaper but highly

>>> talented junior associates. Why pay $300K a year when you can train a new

>>> guy into the job at $160K?

>>>

>>> The reason I mention the comparison, which I'm sure has its flaws, is

>>> that I was struck by the sheer number of students looking for work at GDC.

>>> With the rising number of game design programs in universities worldwide, I

>>> wonder if we're experiencing the same kind of glut of graduates that the law

>>> firms are?

>>>

>>> On the one hand, that means that some of the most talented students have

>>> a chance to truly excel and stand out heads and shoulders above the rest. On

>>> the other hand, it means that talented students may get lost in the shuffle

>>> as well.

>>>

>>> As far as law schools go, there have been an increasing chorus of voices

>>> calling for schools to self-police and restrict the number of students that

>>> they accept, but I'm sure we can all guess how much effect that has had

>>> (protip: rhymes with zero). I haven't seen the same thing from the games

>>> industry, nor am I suggesting that it should be implemented: I'd love to see

>>> the day where we have 300+ game design programs graduating 500+ students

>>> each per year. I'm just curious if anyone on this list has considered the

>>> subject.

>>>

>>> -Dan

>>>

>>>

>>> On Apr 1, 2009, at 10:13 PM, Jose P. Zagal wrote:

>>>

>>> I also have the impression that any bad news in the games industry is

>>>> automatically attributed to the economy. Truth is, game companies have

>>>> always trimmed people, closed studies, and so on. I'm not sure that things

>>>> are particularly worse than before. I'm not saying that they're rosy either,

>>>> just that it easy to get caught up in the negative hype.

>>>>

>>>> For example, I would have said that GDC seemed pretty empty...but the

>>>> attendance numbers would clearly show me wrong. :-)

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> Jose

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> Ian Schreiber wrote:

>>>>

>>>>> This is a great question, and in fact one of the big things I was

>>>>> hoping to get out of GDC this year was an answer to the question: why all

>>>>> the layoffs when games (judging by revenue) are still a growth industry?

>>>>> This is just my opinion (based on talking to a lot of people and trying

>>>>> to "read between the lines" on the expo floor), but I think it comes down to

>>>>> two things:

>>>>> 1) A lot of game developers are, frankly, not superstars. Game

>>>>> companies with a lot of mediocre employees are trying to cut the deadwood.

>>>>> 2) Since everyone is doing this at the same time, it causes a cascade

>>>>> effect that is really benefitting development shops. Want to lay people off,

>>>>> but afraid of cutting the staff too much? No problem, there's lots of people

>>>>> looking for work, so you can cut deep and then staff up fast if you need to

>>>>> later on. Want to hire people? That's also no problem, lots of talent in the

>>>>> job market right now.

>>>>> Now, I did see some companies hiring very aggressively. I also saw a

>>>>> number of geographic regions heavily incentivizing developers to move to

>>>>> their region (seriously, probably a third of the booths in North Hall were a

>>>>> location).

>>>>> Corollaries:

>>>>> * Students are going to have a rough time of it for now. The bar has

>>>>> officially been raised. I think the industry will always have a place for

>>>>> people who are genuinely skilled and talented, but the marginal students

>>>>> should be thinking about another line of work that's less demanding.

>>>>> * The regions that are trying to attract developers (such as those with

>>>>> booths) are worth looking at for students who are willing to move out of the

>>>>> country AND start their own independent studio while their burn rate is low.

>>>>> I don't normally advise this to my students (starting a business when you

>>>>> have no experience is a great way to lose everything you have) but in the

>>>>> rare case when a student is ready to take this step, it seems to be a great

>>>>> time for it.

>>>>> * If your institution is looking to hire industry-experienced people

>>>>> for teaching positions, this is a really great time to staff up your

>>>>> department. A lot of people are getting sick and tired of the layoffs and

>>>>> would like something that at least has the appearance of stability :)

>>>>> * With so many schools churning out game-related degrees each year and

>>>>> the industry growth not keeping pace, I can't see this changing in the near

>>>>> future. But it does mean that as schools, the bar has been raised on us as

>>>>> well; the schools with mediocre programs that produce mediocre graduates

>>>>> will find their students unable to find work.

>>>>> - Ian

>>>>> --- On *Wed, 4/1/09, Brena Smith /<brena.smith at gmail.com<http://us.mc397.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=brena.smith@gmail.com>>/*

>>>>> wrote:

>>>>>   From: Brena Smith <brena.smith at gmail.com<http://us.mc397.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=brena.smith@gmail.com>

>>>>> >

>>>>>   Subject: [game_edu] Game studies and the economy

>>>>>   To: "IGDA Game Education Listserv" <game_edu at igda.org<http://us.mc397.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=game_edu@igda.org>

>>>>> >

>>>>>   Date: Wednesday, April 1, 2009, 12:54 PM

>>>>>   Hi all,

>>>>>   I have two questions: First, I know that all educational

>>>>>   institutions are not untouched by the economy these days - but have

>>>>>   any of you seen any specific impact on game studies departments?

>>>>> Second, any thoughts on how the economy has impacted the electronic

>>>>>   game industry in general?  Are game companies seeing a lot of

>>>>>   layoffs?  Are students still able to find jobs?

>>>>>   Many thanks!

>>>>>   Brena

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