[game_edu] Game studies and the economy

[Darius Kazemi]

All of my numbers are from Boston, where I live. $40k sounds high to me.

2009/4/2 Scott Maddock <smaddock at gmail.com>


> Eh, that was indeed an oversimplified statement, I should have been more

> careful.  I was specifically ignoring QA (as those are usually hourly, not

> salaried), and I was thinking in east coast terms, which is also

> misleading.  Apologies for the lack of details!

>

> That said, I think I'd still expect a graduate who manages to land a

> salaried position as a designer, artist, or programmer, to start at 40k

> (outside of California), unless they're going to a startup that doesn't have

> the budget to be paying any of their employees very well yet.

>

> 2009/4/2 Ian Schreiber <ai864 at yahoo.com>

>

>    I think that may be oversimplifying. 40K in California might be

>> equivalent to 20-25K anywhere else, so to really compare apples to apples

>> you have to give the location and salary (and also benefits, which are

>> sometimes a considerable part of the total compensation package).

>>

>> In general, junior game designers are going to make less than other fields

>> because it's a high-demand/prestige position; audio will make less because

>> they get no love, as you say; and QA will make less, because they get even

>> less respect than audio (QA is also the most likely to be part-time hourly

>> with no benefits).

>>

>> I'm also not sure if people with game-related degrees will start at higher

>> or lower salary than those with more general liberal arts degrees, when

>> hired into comparable positions. IGDA salary survey doesn't make the

>> distinction. I'd suspect there would be little difference in actual pay,

>> although there's probably a difference in hiring rate.

>>

>> - Ian

>>

>> --- On *Thu, 4/2/09, Scott Maddock <smaddock at gmail.com>* wrote:

>>

>>

>> From: Scott Maddock <smaddock at gmail.com>

>> Subject: Re: [game_edu] Game studies and the economy

>> To: "IGDA Game Education Listserv" <game_edu at igda.org>

>> Date: Thursday, April 2, 2009, 12:05 PM

>>

>>

>> I would hesitantly guess that no one graduating with a game-related degree

>> is going to start under 40k (except maybe audio...sorry, guys, but you don't

>> get as much love as you should!).  Does that sound roughly accurate to most

>> of you?

>>

>> 2009/4/2 Dan Rosenthal <swatjester at gmail.com<http://us.mc397.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=swatjester@gmail.com>

>> >

>>

>>> Oh, I'm sure the salary gaps are nowhere near that of the law industry

>>> (300K+ per year difference between a senior associate and a junior at top

>>> firms) but with the sheer number of students looking to make their way into

>>> the industry, simple economic theory would indicate that the average

>>> starting wage for them would likely be going down, or at least staying

>>> static in relation to increases in COL and inflation.

>>> I could be entirely wrong, it's just a theory. But it seems to fit.

>>>

>>> -Dan

>>>

>>>  On Apr 2, 2009, at 10:24 AM, Scott Maddock wrote:

>>>

>>>  I think you may be on to something with this law industry comparison,

>>> though I would think it's specifically being focused at the senior level

>>> developers who, as Ian bluntly put it, just aren't superstars.  If you have

>>> someone who has "paid his/her dues" and is making notably more than an entry

>>> level dev would, without producing significantly better work, then I can

>>> certainly see a studio making that trade.  But in general (and maybe I just

>>> haven't been working long enough to find out what the "big bucks" is in this

>>> industry...though I do read the results of the yearly salary survey!), a

>>> senior level dev doesn't make SO much more than an entry level that it'd be

>>> worth trading down in -experience-.  Until you've actually -worked- in the

>>> industry, even if it's just an internship or a co-op, you really haven't

>>> gotten your feet wet.

>>>

>>> Somehow, I don't think that studios are really worried about the stigma

>>> of constantly firing senior employees to hire cheap new ones (and then

>>> repeat the process) to keep costs down (which is sad; they should be,

>>> because it's wrong, but I digress...).

>>>

>>> On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 12:39 AM, Dan Rosenthal <swatjester at gmail.com<http://us.mc397.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=swatjester@gmail.com>

>>> > wrote:

>>>

>>>> Has anyone considered whether the game industry is experiencing a

>>>> phenomenon similar to the law industry, where a combination of a tightening

>>>> economy and a glut of talented new graduates willing to work for extremely

>>>> low pay to compete for the limited number of jobs, has lead to

>>>> belt-tightening measures among senior staff?  It's been my experience that

>>>> as far as major law firms go, many have been firing large numbers of

>>>> highly-paid senior associates, to replace them with cheaper but highly

>>>> talented junior associates. Why pay $300K a year when you can train a new

>>>> guy into the job at $160K?

>>>>

>>>> The reason I mention the comparison, which I'm sure has its flaws, is

>>>> that I was struck by the sheer number of students looking for work at GDC.

>>>> With the rising number of game design programs in universities worldwide, I

>>>> wonder if we're experiencing the same kind of glut of graduates that the law

>>>> firms are?

>>>>

>>>> On the one hand, that means that some of the most talented students have

>>>> a chance to truly excel and stand out heads and shoulders above the rest. On

>>>> the other hand, it means that talented students may get lost in the shuffle

>>>> as well.

>>>>

>>>> As far as law schools go, there have been an increasing chorus of voices

>>>> calling for schools to self-police and restrict the number of students that

>>>> they accept, but I'm sure we can all guess how much effect that has had

>>>> (protip: rhymes with zero). I haven't seen the same thing from the games

>>>> industry, nor am I suggesting that it should be implemented: I'd love to see

>>>> the day where we have 300+ game design programs graduating 500+ students

>>>> each per year. I'm just curious if anyone on this list has considered the

>>>> subject.

>>>>

>>>> -Dan

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> On Apr 1, 2009, at 10:13 PM, Jose P. Zagal wrote:

>>>>

>>>> I also have the impression that any bad news in the games industry is

>>>>> automatically attributed to the economy. Truth is, game companies have

>>>>> always trimmed people, closed studies, and so on. I'm not sure that things

>>>>> are particularly worse than before. I'm not saying that they're rosy either,

>>>>> just that it easy to get caught up in the negative hype.

>>>>>

>>>>> For example, I would have said that GDC seemed pretty empty...but the

>>>>> attendance numbers would clearly show me wrong. :-)

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> Jose

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> Ian Schreiber wrote:

>>>>>

>>>>>> This is a great question, and in fact one of the big things I was

>>>>>> hoping to get out of GDC this year was an answer to the question: why all

>>>>>> the layoffs when games (judging by revenue) are still a growth industry?

>>>>>> This is just my opinion (based on talking to a lot of people and

>>>>>> trying to "read between the lines" on the expo floor), but I think it comes

>>>>>> down to two things:

>>>>>> 1) A lot of game developers are, frankly, not superstars. Game

>>>>>> companies with a lot of mediocre employees are trying to cut the deadwood.

>>>>>> 2) Since everyone is doing this at the same time, it causes a cascade

>>>>>> effect that is really benefitting development shops. Want to lay people off,

>>>>>> but afraid of cutting the staff too much? No problem, there's lots of people

>>>>>> looking for work, so you can cut deep and then staff up fast if you need to

>>>>>> later on. Want to hire people? That's also no problem, lots of talent in the

>>>>>> job market right now.

>>>>>> Now, I did see some companies hiring very aggressively. I also saw a

>>>>>> number of geographic regions heavily incentivizing developers to move to

>>>>>> their region (seriously, probably a third of the booths in North Hall were a

>>>>>> location).

>>>>>> Corollaries:

>>>>>> * Students are going to have a rough time of it for now. The bar has

>>>>>> officially been raised. I think the industry will always have a place for

>>>>>> people who are genuinely skilled and talented, but the marginal students

>>>>>> should be thinking about another line of work that's less demanding.

>>>>>> * The regions that are trying to attract developers (such as those

>>>>>> with booths) are worth looking at for students who are willing to move out

>>>>>> of the country AND start their own independent studio while their burn rate

>>>>>> is low. I don't normally advise this to my students (starting a business

>>>>>> when you have no experience is a great way to lose everything you have) but

>>>>>> in the rare case when a student is ready to take this step, it seems to be a

>>>>>> great time for it.

>>>>>> * If your institution is looking to hire industry-experienced people

>>>>>> for teaching positions, this is a really great time to staff up your

>>>>>> department. A lot of people are getting sick and tired of the layoffs and

>>>>>> would like something that at least has the appearance of stability :)

>>>>>> * With so many schools churning out game-related degrees each year and

>>>>>> the industry growth not keeping pace, I can't see this changing in the near

>>>>>> future. But it does mean that as schools, the bar has been raised on us as

>>>>>> well; the schools with mediocre programs that produce mediocre graduates

>>>>>> will find their students unable to find work.

>>>>>> - Ian

>>>>>> --- On *Wed, 4/1/09, Brena Smith /<brena.smith at gmail.com<http://us.mc397.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=brena.smith@gmail.com>>/*

>>>>>> wrote:

>>>>>>   From: Brena Smith <brena.smith at gmail.com<http://us.mc397.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=brena.smith@gmail.com>

>>>>>> >

>>>>>>   Subject: [game_edu] Game studies and the economy

>>>>>>   To: "IGDA Game Education Listserv" <game_edu at igda.org<http://us.mc397.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=game_edu@igda.org>

>>>>>> >

>>>>>>   Date: Wednesday, April 1, 2009, 12:54 PM

>>>>>>   Hi all,

>>>>>>   I have two questions: First, I know that all educational

>>>>>>   institutions are not untouched by the economy these days - but have

>>>>>>   any of you seen any specific impact on game studies departments?

>>>>>> Second, any thoughts on how the economy has impacted the electronic

>>>>>>   game industry in general?  Are game companies seeing a lot of

>>>>>>   layoffs?  Are students still able to find jobs?

>>>>>>   Many thanks!

>>>>>>   Brena

>>>>>>   -----Inline Attachment Follows-----

>>>>>>   _______________________________________________

>>>>>>   game_edu mailing list

>>>>>>   game_edu at igda.org<http://us.mc397.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=game_edu@igda.org>

>>>>>>   <http://us.mc397.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=game_edu@igda.org>

>>>>>>   http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_edu

>>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> _______________________________________________

>>>>> game_edu mailing list

>>>>> game_edu at igda.org<http://us.mc397.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=game_edu@igda.org>

>>>>> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_edu

>>>>>

>>>>

>>>> _______________________________________________

>>>> game_edu mailing list

>>>> game_edu at igda.org<http://us.mc397.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=game_edu@igda.org>

>>>> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_edu

>>>>

>>>

>>> _______________________________________________

>>> game_edu mailing list

>>> game_edu at igda.org<http://us.mc397.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=game_edu@igda.org>

>>> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_edu

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>> _______________________________________________

>>> game_edu mailing list

>>> game_edu at igda.org<http://us.mc397.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=game_edu@igda.org>

>>> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_edu

>>>

>>>

>>

>> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----

>>

>>   _______________________________________________

>> game_edu mailing list

>> game_edu at igda.org<http://us.mc397.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=game_edu@igda.org>

>> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_edu

>>

>>

>>

>> _______________________________________________

>> game_edu mailing list

>> game_edu at igda.org

>> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_edu

>>

>>

>

> _______________________________________________

> game_edu mailing list

> game_edu at igda.org

> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_edu

>

>

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://seven.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_edu/attachments/20090402/db77d0a7/attachment-0001.html>