[game_edu] Game studies and the economy

[Seth Sivak]

I am about to graduate from a game related graduate school and most of my
friends are all looking for jobs.  From what I can tell most programmers
look at getting well over 40k a year (more like 60k and this is in Boston,
NY, SF and LA), but art and design are a bit different.  No one that I know
of from my program is going into QA.  It seems like artists get paid the
least, with designers and producers both about the same and programmers
receiving the most.  I know of a tiny amount of students actually getting
straight design jobs, most are either design/production or
design/programming.  In the programming category (this is what I do), it
seems that gameplay programmers are the least in demand, but graphics and
tools programmers stand to make a bit more money and there are more jobs
available.

Also, most of the first year students have managed to get summer intenships,
so they do exist.  A large number of students are going to EA, Activision
and 2K.  I know of at least one going to LucasArts and a bunch going to
other smaller studios.

Again, this is a grad school so it may not be typical of all game related
education.

Seth

2009/4/2 Darius Kazemi <darius.kazemi at gmail.com>


> All of my numbers are from Boston, where I live. $40k sounds high to me.

>

> 2009/4/2 Scott Maddock <smaddock at gmail.com>

>

> Eh, that was indeed an oversimplified statement, I should have been more

>> careful.  I was specifically ignoring QA (as those are usually hourly, not

>> salaried), and I was thinking in east coast terms, which is also

>> misleading.  Apologies for the lack of details!

>>

>> That said, I think I'd still expect a graduate who manages to land a

>> salaried position as a designer, artist, or programmer, to start at 40k

>> (outside of California), unless they're going to a startup that doesn't have

>> the budget to be paying any of their employees very well yet.

>>

>> 2009/4/2 Ian Schreiber <ai864 at yahoo.com>

>>

>>    I think that may be oversimplifying. 40K in California might be

>>> equivalent to 20-25K anywhere else, so to really compare apples to apples

>>> you have to give the location and salary (and also benefits, which are

>>> sometimes a considerable part of the total compensation package).

>>>

>>> In general, junior game designers are going to make less than other

>>> fields because it's a high-demand/prestige position; audio will make less

>>> because they get no love, as you say; and QA will make less, because they

>>> get even less respect than audio (QA is also the most likely to be part-time

>>> hourly with no benefits).

>>>

>>> I'm also not sure if people with game-related degrees will start at

>>> higher or lower salary than those with more general liberal arts degrees,

>>> when hired into comparable positions. IGDA salary survey doesn't make the

>>> distinction. I'd suspect there would be little difference in actual pay,

>>> although there's probably a difference in hiring rate.

>>>

>>> - Ian

>>>

>>> --- On *Thu, 4/2/09, Scott Maddock <smaddock at gmail.com>* wrote:

>>>

>>>

>>> From: Scott Maddock <smaddock at gmail.com>

>>> Subject: Re: [game_edu] Game studies and the economy

>>> To: "IGDA Game Education Listserv" <game_edu at igda.org>

>>> Date: Thursday, April 2, 2009, 12:05 PM

>>>

>>>

>>> I would hesitantly guess that no one graduating with a game-related

>>> degree is going to start under 40k (except maybe audio...sorry, guys, but

>>> you don't get as much love as you should!).  Does that sound roughly

>>> accurate to most of you?

>>>

>>> 2009/4/2 Dan Rosenthal <swatjester at gmail.com<http://us.mc397.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=swatjester@gmail.com>

>>> >

>>>

>>>> Oh, I'm sure the salary gaps are nowhere near that of the law industry

>>>> (300K+ per year difference between a senior associate and a junior at top

>>>> firms) but with the sheer number of students looking to make their way into

>>>> the industry, simple economic theory would indicate that the average

>>>> starting wage for them would likely be going down, or at least staying

>>>> static in relation to increases in COL and inflation.

>>>> I could be entirely wrong, it's just a theory. But it seems to fit.

>>>>

>>>> -Dan

>>>>

>>>>  On Apr 2, 2009, at 10:24 AM, Scott Maddock wrote:

>>>>

>>>>  I think you may be on to something with this law industry comparison,

>>>> though I would think it's specifically being focused at the senior level

>>>> developers who, as Ian bluntly put it, just aren't superstars.  If you have

>>>> someone who has "paid his/her dues" and is making notably more than an entry

>>>> level dev would, without producing significantly better work, then I can

>>>> certainly see a studio making that trade.  But in general (and maybe I just

>>>> haven't been working long enough to find out what the "big bucks" is in this

>>>> industry...though I do read the results of the yearly salary survey!), a

>>>> senior level dev doesn't make SO much more than an entry level that it'd be

>>>> worth trading down in -experience-.  Until you've actually -worked- in the

>>>> industry, even if it's just an internship or a co-op, you really haven't

>>>> gotten your feet wet.

>>>>

>>>> Somehow, I don't think that studios are really worried about the stigma

>>>> of constantly firing senior employees to hire cheap new ones (and then

>>>> repeat the process) to keep costs down (which is sad; they should be,

>>>> because it's wrong, but I digress...).

>>>>

>>>> On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 12:39 AM, Dan Rosenthal <swatjester at gmail.com<http://us.mc397.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=swatjester@gmail.com>

>>>> > wrote:

>>>>

>>>>> Has anyone considered whether the game industry is experiencing a

>>>>> phenomenon similar to the law industry, where a combination of a tightening

>>>>> economy and a glut of talented new graduates willing to work for extremely

>>>>> low pay to compete for the limited number of jobs, has lead to

>>>>> belt-tightening measures among senior staff?  It's been my experience that

>>>>> as far as major law firms go, many have been firing large numbers of

>>>>> highly-paid senior associates, to replace them with cheaper but highly

>>>>> talented junior associates. Why pay $300K a year when you can train a new

>>>>> guy into the job at $160K?

>>>>>

>>>>> The reason I mention the comparison, which I'm sure has its flaws, is

>>>>> that I was struck by the sheer number of students looking for work at GDC.

>>>>> With the rising number of game design programs in universities worldwide, I

>>>>> wonder if we're experiencing the same kind of glut of graduates that the law

>>>>> firms are?

>>>>>

>>>>> On the one hand, that means that some of the most talented students

>>>>> have a chance to truly excel and stand out heads and shoulders above the

>>>>> rest. On the other hand, it means that talented students may get lost in the

>>>>> shuffle as well.

>>>>>

>>>>> As far as law schools go, there have been an increasing chorus of

>>>>> voices calling for schools to self-police and restrict the number of

>>>>> students that they accept, but I'm sure we can all guess how much effect

>>>>> that has had (protip: rhymes with zero). I haven't seen the same thing from

>>>>> the games industry, nor am I suggesting that it should be implemented: I'd

>>>>> love to see the day where we have 300+ game design programs graduating 500+

>>>>> students each per year. I'm just curious if anyone on this list has

>>>>> considered the subject.

>>>>>

>>>>> -Dan

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> On Apr 1, 2009, at 10:13 PM, Jose P. Zagal wrote:

>>>>>

>>>>> I also have the impression that any bad news in the games industry is

>>>>>> automatically attributed to the economy. Truth is, game companies have

>>>>>> always trimmed people, closed studies, and so on. I'm not sure that things

>>>>>> are particularly worse than before. I'm not saying that they're rosy either,

>>>>>> just that it easy to get caught up in the negative hype.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> For example, I would have said that GDC seemed pretty empty...but the

>>>>>> attendance numbers would clearly show me wrong. :-)

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Jose

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Ian Schreiber wrote:

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> This is a great question, and in fact one of the big things I was

>>>>>>> hoping to get out of GDC this year was an answer to the question: why all

>>>>>>> the layoffs when games (judging by revenue) are still a growth industry?

>>>>>>> This is just my opinion (based on talking to a lot of people and

>>>>>>> trying to "read between the lines" on the expo floor), but I think it comes

>>>>>>> down to two things:

>>>>>>> 1) A lot of game developers are, frankly, not superstars. Game

>>>>>>> companies with a lot of mediocre employees are trying to cut the deadwood.

>>>>>>> 2) Since everyone is doing this at the same time, it causes a cascade

>>>>>>> effect that is really benefitting development shops. Want to lay people off,

>>>>>>> but afraid of cutting the staff too much? No problem, there's lots of people

>>>>>>> looking for work, so you can cut deep and then staff up fast if you need to

>>>>>>> later on. Want to hire people? That's also no problem, lots of talent in the

>>>>>>> job market right now.

>>>>>>> Now, I did see some companies hiring very aggressively. I also saw a

>>>>>>> number of geographic regions heavily incentivizing developers to move to

>>>>>>> their region (seriously, probably a third of the booths in North Hall were a

>>>>>>> location).

>>>>>>> Corollaries:

>>>>>>> * Students are going to have a rough time of it for now. The bar has

>>>>>>> officially been raised. I think the industry will always have a place for

>>>>>>> people who are genuinely skilled and talented, but the marginal students

>>>>>>> should be thinking about another line of work that's less demanding.

>>>>>>> * The regions that are trying to attract developers (such as those

>>>>>>> with booths) are worth looking at for students who are willing to move out

>>>>>>> of the country AND start their own independent studio while their burn rate

>>>>>>> is low. I don't normally advise this to my students (starting a business

>>>>>>> when you have no experience is a great way to lose everything you have) but

>>>>>>> in the rare case when a student is ready to take this step, it seems to be a

>>>>>>> great time for it.

>>>>>>> * If your institution is looking to hire industry-experienced people

>>>>>>> for teaching positions, this is a really great time to staff up your

>>>>>>> department. A lot of people are getting sick and tired of the layoffs and

>>>>>>> would like something that at least has the appearance of stability :)

>>>>>>> * With so many schools churning out game-related degrees each year

>>>>>>> and the industry growth not keeping pace, I can't see this changing in the

>>>>>>> near future. But it does mean that as schools, the bar has been raised on us

>>>>>>> as well; the schools with mediocre programs that produce mediocre graduates

>>>>>>> will find their students unable to find work.

>>>>>>> - Ian

>>>>>>> --- On *Wed, 4/1/09, Brena Smith /<brena.smith at gmail.com<http://us.mc397.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=brena.smith@gmail.com>>/*

>>>>>>> wrote:

>>>>>>>   From: Brena Smith <brena.smith at gmail.com<http://us.mc397.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=brena.smith@gmail.com>

>>>>>>> >

>>>>>>>   Subject: [game_edu] Game studies and the economy

>>>>>>>   To: "IGDA Game Education Listserv" <game_edu at igda.org<http://us.mc397.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=game_edu@igda.org>

>>>>>>> >

>>>>>>>   Date: Wednesday, April 1, 2009, 12:54 PM

>>>>>>>   Hi all,

>>>>>>>   I have two questions: First, I know that all educational

>>>>>>>   institutions are not untouched by the economy these days - but have

>>>>>>>   any of you seen any specific impact on game studies departments?

>>>>>>>   Second, any thoughts on how the economy has impacted the electronic

>>>>>>>   game industry in general?  Are game companies seeing a lot of

>>>>>>>   layoffs?  Are students still able to find jobs?

>>>>>>>   Many thanks!

>>>>>>>   Brena

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